D&D General 6-8 encounters (combat?)

[UngainlyTitan]

I think that incentives would solve the issue in many cases. I believe that the phenomenon of the 5MWD likely has a strong correlation with studies that have shown that players will optimize the fun out of a game when given the opportunity. And this is something that incentives (and/or disincentives) can fix.

Simply make pushing on more optimal than the 5MWD (admittedly, this is easier said than done) and "optimizer" players will no longer opt for a 5MWD. The game can be designed such that the players optimize the fun into the game. We already have mechanics to this end, such a experience points; they're simply orthogonal to the issue of the 5MWD.

That obviously wouldn't solve the 5MWD for groups where "optimization" isn't the root issue. In those cases you'd certainly need to have a conversation, since the issue is probably specific to that group.

Where I am sceptical is that for optimisers that insist on a 5mwd, any incentive that encourages them to push on could create its own wonkiness. D&D is a very broad church and satisfying all factions may be impossible.

 

[Yaarel]

The exact wording is ".. most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day."
Not seven, however if one does the math on the "Adventuring Day XP" table (at least for the levels i have sampled it at) that breaks down at about 7 to 8 medium or 4 to 5 hard or about 3 deadly or any combination thereof. There is quite a bit of flexibility in the thing.

There is no flexibility. It all must happen in the same day before the long rest. It doesnt matter how the DM divides it up.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

There is no flexibility. It all must happen in the same day before the long rest. It doesnt matter how the DM divides it up.

So, you are saying there is no material difference between 14 easy encounters and 3 deadly ones?

 

[Yaarel]

So, you are saying there is no material difference between 14 easy encounters and 3 deadly ones?

I am saying both mechanical extremes make no sense in the story when either must happen every day.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Wizards have greater flexibility in terms of resource management than most classes, because they can opt to rely on the resources of other classes.

Let's say that the party comes across two giants. The frontline engages the giants.

The wizard can choose to cast cantrips and let the frontline deal with them, which is likely to cost the frontline more in terms of hit points and potentially other resources.

The wizard can expend a trivial resource, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, to likely disable one of the giants and make it easier on the frontline (which will likely save the frontline significant resources).

The wizard can expend a significant resource, like a 6th level Hold Monster spell, in order to probably trivialize the encounter, likely resulting in minimal resource loss on the part of the frontline.

The fighter can ask the wizard to cast a bigger spell, but they can't really do much about it due to their role and capabilities. The wizard can choose not to cast a bigger spell. If the fighter refuses to tank for the wizard, assuming the monster doesn't focus on the fighter anyway, the wizard can Dimension Door away and leave the fighter to fend for himself. The fighter can't really get away from the giants, since their movement speed is most likely greater than the fighter's.

Now, I'll grant you, this party dynamic sounds more than a little unhealthy. I might not want to play with these guys.

However, this isn't about player dynamics per se.

My point is to illustrate that the power imbalance between wizards and fighters extends to a very meta power imbalance between the player of the wizard, and the player of the fighter. At a healthy table, this may never be an issue, since the wizard player shouldn't ever opt to abuse that power imbalance. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist however, and I don't think it should be there to begin with. A more robust fighter design would narrow or even completely eliminate the imbalance.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I am saying both mechanical extremes make no sense in the story when either must happen every day.

Wel since I regard that element in the DMG as a guideline than a rule I do not have a problem, but even if it was a rule, I would not expect that all adventuring days as flat out full of action.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Wizards have greater flexibility in terms of resource management than most classes, because they can opt to rely on the resources of other classes.

Let's say that the party comes across two giants. The frontline engages the giants.

The wizard can choose to cast cantrips and let the frontline deal with them, which is likely to cost the frontline more in terms of hit points and potentially other resources.

The wizard can expend a trivial resource, like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, to likely disable one of the giants and make it easier on the frontline (which will likely save the frontline significant resources).

The wizard can expend a significant resource, like a 6th level Hold Monster spell, in order to probably trivialize the encounter, likely resulting in minimal resource loss on the part of the frontline.

The fighter can ask the wizard to cast a bigger spell, but they can't really do much about it due to their role and capabilities. The wizard can choose not to cast a bigger spell. If the fighter refuses to tank for the wizard, assuming the monster doesn't focus on the fighter anyway, the wizard can Dimension Door away and leave the fighter to fend for himself. The fighter can't really get away from the giants, since their movement speed is most likely greater than the fighter's.

Now, I'll grant you, this party dynamic sounds more than a little unhealthy. I might not want to play with these guys.

However, this isn't about player dynamics per se.

My point is to illustrate that the power imbalance between wizards and fighters extends to a very meta power imbalance between the player of the wizard, and the player of the fighter. At a healthy table, this may never be an issue, since the wizard player shouldn't ever opt to abuse that power imbalance. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist however, and I don't think it should be there to begin with. A more robust fighter design would narrow or even completely eliminate the imbalance.

You are not wrong but, we have tried scaling back the wizard, but I think if you empowered the fighter to match a wizard, Morrus's servers would explode from the tide of wrath and indignation unleashed.

 

[Fanaelialae]

You are not wrong but, we have tried scaling back the wizard, but I think if you empowered the fighter to match a wizard, Morrus's servers would explode from the tide of wrath and indignation unleashed.

The thing is, I don't think that you need to empower the fighter to match the wizard. That seems to be what everyone in these conversations thinks is the only option when I bring this up. But that's basically making the perfect the enemy of the good.

I mean, couldn't there maybe be a compromise out there? Some reasonable improvement to the fighter that doesn't unleash a tide of wrath and indignation?

 

[Minigiant]

Classes dont have to be balanced every day. No-one is saying they do, and no-one is saying 'thou must enforce 6-8 encounters and 2-3 short rests on your party via doom clocks every adventuring day.

Stop. Read.you missed my point.

The point is that 5es resources are built around having 6-8 encounters per adventure day to be balanced.

So if 50% of you Adventure days are 6-8 encounters, only 50% of your adventure days are balanced.

 

[Flamestrike]

It isnt just "guidance" − it is math!

No, Im talking about the rest variant guidance in the DMG.

I agree the math is balanced (re encounter and class balance) around 20 or so rounds of combat, split over 6 or so encounters, with roughly 2 short rests in between long rests.

Things balance at that point.

That doesnt mean every AD needs to hit that mark. Some days will be shorter, and some longer, some with more SR and some with less. Some days long rest classes shine, some days short rest classes shine. The spotlight moves around (and it stops feeling samey).

Feature, not a bug.

As long as that's your rough median number of encounters, rounds and SR between long rests (however you want to enforce that) you're all good.