D&D 5E D&D Next playtest post mortem by Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson. From seven years ago.

[James Gasik]

I haven't got a horse in this race but this list is... uhm... an interesting take on Intelligence being what allows these characters to fight well?? I mean Batman is literally suppose to be in peak physical condition, he's a great detective but he is mostly winning straight up fights because of his physical attributes and training... I mean besides his immeasurable plot armor.

Given that Batman exits in a universe where he's often fighting people stronger and tougher than him, it counts.

And most fictional characters have plot armor, so can you really hold it against them?

 

[darjr]

Given that Batman exits in a universe where he's often fighting people stronger and tougher than him, it counts.

And most fictional characters have plot armor, so can you really hold it against them?

I think that’s the point though.

I get that folks want to play the fiction of beating someone in a knuckle brawler with brain power. It’s a cool and fun trope. I’m just not sure if D&D is the game to swap int for str or dex to accomplish that.

But, if it’s working, don’t listen to me.

 

[Minigiant]

I have yet to see a pro wrestler that was not hugely muscled compared to a normal person. Again ... it's not that intelligence can't be useful ... it's this theory that you could dump strength and dex but use intelligence alone (actually it was charisma) for all your attacks and damage.

There is no common fiction or visual that supports that. Could there be a fighting style or feat that grants you some benefit from other abilities such as intelligence? Sure.

But I don't want a game where charisma can be used in place of strength for a guy swinging a halberd. If you do, more power to you.

Luchadors and Cruiserweights

Many high flyers and technicians are on the small side. Especially now and 20 years ago. Rey Mysetrio and Chris Jericho of the past and Darby Allin and Dominick Mysterio of today were/are tiny compared to their opponents. And their opponents have max Strength.

Now Charisma attacks would not be a halberd focused. It would likely be a rapier or scimatar user on focuses on bluffs and feints with light weapons.

 

[Oofta]

Luchadors and Cruiserweights

Many high flyers and technicians are on the small side. Especially now and 20 years ago. Rey Mysetrio and Chris Jericho of the past and Darby Allin and Dominick Mysterio of today were/are tiny compared to their opponents. And their opponents have max Strength.

Now Charisma attacks would not be a halberd focused. It would likely be a rapier or scimatar user on focuses on bluffs and feints with light weapons.

I'll have to take your word for it, WWE is a niche and hardly makes a dent in popular culture. If people do think of professional wrestlers they think Dwayne Jonson if anything.

 

[Minigiant]

I'll have to take your word for it, WWE is a niche and hardly makes a dent in popular culture. If people do think of professional wrestlers they think Dwayne Jonson if anything.

The Rock added Charisma to damage.

His signature move finishing move is dancing up to his downed foe and hitting them with a basic elbow drop.

Hogan too.
Theatrics, More Theatrics, Run to rope for no reason..... the basic legdrop. 1 2 3 . Music.

 

[Oofta]

The Rock added Charisma to damage.

His signature move finishing move is dancing up to his downed foe and hitting them with a basic elbow drop.

Hogan too.
Theatrics, More Theatrics, Run to rope for no reason..... the basic legdrop. 1 2 3 . Music.

If The Rock was a D&D character I'd definitely give him a decent charisma. But his attacks were not charisma based with no strength to back it up.

 

[Hussar]

It's not policing what others can do. It's about game design that we enjoy. Using any ability at all to attack (especially when there are plenty of options) is counterintuitive, illogical and off-putting. When I build a PC I'm forced to make compromises and choices. I want the imagery and archetype to make sense.

It's off putting to YOU. You are welcome to make whatever character floats your boat. Why do you get to dictate what character I make? Why should your preferences be forced on everyone else? After all, I can come up with perfectly plausible (to me) explanations for how a Cha or Int fighter works. So, again, how is this not 100% policing what others can do? Having a floating attack stat in no way changes how you make your character but frees up the space so I can make the character I want to play.

How is that not a better thing?

AFAIC, you've already lost this argument when the notion of floating ASI's became standard.

 

[Gammadoodler]

When I was in college/high school and when I wrestled and when my kids wrestled there were women on the mens teams and they, at those levels, had to wrestle smart to be competitive, but again mostly in their training. In the middle of a match if you’re thinking a lot you’re probably too slow.

Also the successful ones were generally among the strongest and fastest people in their weight class. I mean most successful wrestlers are.

I think a lot of where intelligence and/or wisdom and charisma in particular could come into play is in being able to 'read' what your opponent intends to do and know the correct response to it as well as how to prevent them from 'reading' you.

You still need to have the physical capacity to execute that response, but if you listen to a lot of top athletes talk about their sport, and why they reacted a particular way to something, it's not accidental.

"He was dropping his shoulder every time he threw x punch"

"They were consistently covering x player or zone"

"For the first two rounds I kept doing x to keep him off balance before switching it up in the third round"

Etc.

There have been plenty of great professional athletes who weren't ideal physical specimens but just knew how to be in the right place at the right time doing the right thing.

 

[Staffan]

I'd say that in fiction, it's pretty rare to have a complete weakling winning a battle of arms through pure intellect or charisma. What you do see are those who are moderately fit using their brains to win, by taking advantage of their opponents' weaknesses.

That said, I still think it would be better to decouple core combat ability from ability scores. One might gate some styles behind ability scores (e.g. fencer needing some Dexterity, great weapon style needing Strength, and archery needing Wisdom) but not the actual attack and damage bonus.

 

[Hussar]

Let's break it down a bit more shall we?

What's wrong with my Cleric of Kord (god of Strength) using Strength as his casting ability? Would make a fair bit of sense, no?

Robin Hood is a perfect example of a charisma fighter - particularly the Erol Flynn version.

And, as far as "believability" goes, how is it possibly believable that my 8 Str 20 Dex archer is capable of accurately shooting a bow dealing gobs of damage when if we're going the "realistic" route, archers needed absolutely fantastic strength to draw those bows? Or, flip it around, my 18 Str 8 Dex great axe fighter is so skilled with swinging an axe that he is just as accurate and hits and deals just as much damage as that nimble 20 dex character using the same weapon?

The whole "I just can believe it" schtick is so overplayed and ludicrous on its face. We're right back to "I'll believe 6 impossible things before breakfast, but, that seventh, wow, that's just a doozy"

But, again, all this aside, I find it frankly astonishing that anyone would seriously argue that their preferences should be forced on other people in the group, let alone EVERYONE's table in the world. Just because someone doesn't find it plausible to have a Cha fighter means that people who don't even play at that table must not EVER play a Cha fighter?

Look, it's simple and it's the same thing that happened with ASI's. There are two options. The first option, someone gets to play the character they want to play but I don't. In the second option, everyone gets to play the character they want to play.

How in the world is option 1 even a consideration anymore?