D&D 5E D&D Next playtest post mortem by Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson. From seven years ago.

[Oofta]

So you can't point to any art or trope in D&D that suggests that mental stats are irrelevant to how well a fighter fights?

You can't point to any examples of the "dumb fighter" who would be invalidated by allowing those stats to have additional interactions in combat.

Your whole reasoning is "not wanting nerdy-looking kids to fight like badasses (unless they select an appropriate casting subclass)".

Cool..seems like a solid argument.

Versus what? What trope or examples can you point to that shows intelligence allowing someone to win based on physical combat alone? Excluding Sherlock Holmes?

Martial arts? Sure. That's covered by the monk. Dexterity based? Sure. Intelligence? Those are all going to be wizards or rely on technology. As far as additional? I guess I wouldn't mind some additional benefit but that's not what's being discussed. I'm talking about the wimpy, clumsy, but intelligent person winning a fight using swords, fists, bows or other non-technical weaponry.

Virtually every example we have of a fighter is either the big brawny guy or someone using dexterity to dodge out of the way while getting past the enemy's guard. I don't have to prove anything - there are a ton of examples of those types of fighters. You're the one trying to create a trope that simply doesn't exist.

 

[Imaro]

So let's see if I can find some other individuals who use brain power to win fights (or other physical challenges).

Horatio Hornblower.
Claudius.
Roran from The Inheritance Cycle.
Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Mace Windu.
Miles Vorkosigan.
Batman.
Mr. Fantastic
Taskmaster.
Ozymandias.
Jason Bourne.
Riddick.
Michelle Trachtenberg.
Naru from Prey.
Yau-Man Chan.
Raymond Berry.
Danny Kaye.
Hironori Kuboki.
Dennis Rodman.
Greg Maddux.

I haven't got a horse in this race but this list is... uhm... an interesting take on Intelligence being what allows these characters to fight well?? I mean Batman is literally suppose to be in peak physical condition, he's a great detective but he is mostly winning straight up fights because of his physical attributes and training... I mean besides his immeasurable plot armor.

 

[Minigiant]

Mearls snd Co stated that they shrunk the default actions because their data said people didn't want complexity.

However they themselves did. Meals and Thompson expressed excitement over having options in combat.

I find it weird that even though they shifted the action options to the DMG, the list was so short.

• Climb on another
• Disarm
•  Mark
• Overrun
• Shove aside
• Tumble

To me that is where the tactics junkies and alternate combat fans could be feed. Odd favorites like

• Brace
• Demoralize
• Feint
• Shift
• Sunder
• Swing on Chandeliers

Could return with alomg with new ideas like Distract or Goad.

But they didn't do it nor move it to the DMG. Do not get it.

 

[Oofta]

So let's see if I can find some other individuals who use brain power to win fights (or other physical challenges).

Horatio Hornblower.
Claudius.
Roran from The Inheritance Cycle.
Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Mace Windu.
Miles Vorkosigan.
Batman.
Mr. Fantastic.
Taskmaster.
Ozymandias.
Jason Bourne.
Riddick.
Michelle Trachtenberg.
Naru from Prey.
Yau-Man Chan.
Raymond Berry.
Danny Kaye.
Hironori Kuboki.
Dennis Rodman.
Greg Maddux.

Let's see, I'll skip over a bunch of these because they're leaders, not anyone that gets into physical combat. Batman can bench press a literal ton based on the author. Matt Damon (Bourne) and Vin Diesel (Riddick) are obviously very physically fit.

I'm not saying intelligence is not useful for a fighter. But that's different from saying that all you need is intelligence with no brawn to back it up.

 

[Minigiant]

Versus what? What trope or examples can you point to that shows intelligence allowing someone to win based on physical combat alone? Excluding Sherlock Holmes?

My answer to a lot of D&D questions is one of my deep loves: Pro Wrestling.

Veterans and Technicians chopping down and locking up
their bigger and faster opponents is a classic trope.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Versus what? What trope or examples can you point to that shows intelligence allowing someone to win based on physical combat alone? Excluding Sherlock Holmes?

Martial arts? Sure. That's covered by the monk. Dexterity based? Sure. Intelligence? Those are all going to be wizards or rely on technology. As far as additional? I guess I wouldn't mind some additional benefit but that's not what's being discussed. I'm talking about the wimpy, clumsy, but intelligent person winning a fight using swords, fists, bows or other non-technical weaponry.

Virtually every example we have of a fighter is either the big brawny guy or someone using dexterity to dodge out of the way while getting past the enemy's guard. I don't have to prove anything - there are a ton of examples of those types of fighters. You're the one trying to create a trope that simply doesn't exist.

This is the quote you replied to (or perhaps non sequitur-ed immediately after..

I'd like Intelligence to have an impact on physical combat. Watch the boxing match from the first RDJ Sherlock Holmes film, where he invokes the "awesome by analysis" trope to predict not only what his opponent will do, but comes up with a strategy to defeat his opponent in the most efficient way, including a diagnosis for the injuries he deals.

Seems to be an Intelligent warrior should be better than a dullard, right?

It is not wimpy weak guy beating strong guy.. it is "getting some benefit from intelligence."

I've not invented any tropes. I've responded in good faith to your apparently strawman argument.

Also..Maybe go back through and look at the art in the PHB and XGtE character sections. I think you'll find that the amount of art that fits your description of "big brawny guy or someone using dexterity to dodge out of the way while getting past the enemy's guard" is shockingly small across all classes. In point of fact I think you'll find many cases where if you weren't in the class' section, you wouldn't be able to tell what they even are.

 

[Oofta]

My answer to a lot of D&D questions is one of my deep loves: Pro Wrestling.

Veterans and Technicians chopping down and locking up
their bigger and faster opponents is a classic trope.

I have yet to see a pro wrestler that was not hugely muscled compared to a normal person. Again ... it's not that intelligence can't be useful ... it's this theory that you could dump strength and dex but use intelligence alone (actually it was charisma) for all your attacks and damage.

There is no common fiction or visual that supports that. Could there be a fighting style or feat that grants you some benefit from other abilities such as intelligence? Sure.

But I don't want a game where charisma can be used in place of strength for a guy swinging a halberd. If you do, more power to you.

 

[darjr]

Some of those are intelligent more in their training and not the fighting, or at least not primarily?

 

[darjr]

When I was in college/high school and when I wrestled and when my kids wrestled there were women on the mens teams and they, at those levels, had to wrestle smart to be competitive, but again mostly in their training. In the middle of a match if you’re thinking a lot you’re probably too slow.

Also the successful ones were generally among the strongest and fastest people in their weight class. I mean most successful wrestlers are.

 

[James Gasik]

Just gonna come in here and name a bunch of wizards?

Sparately..Michelle Trachtenberg?

Oops, I meant her character Casey Carlyle from Ice Princess.