D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[DEFCON 1]

Because one version ("you find shelter") allows you to stop handwaving when there's an interesting reason to, and the other version ("I cast Tiny Hut") does not. I don't know how to say it more simply than that.

Except when the other version is "Person outside casts Dispel Magic on the Tiny Hut". In which case both versions end the "handwaving" when I as the DM chooses to.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Like I said... if some of you wished you could have more "attack the party while they're sleeping" encounters, then of course I understand why Tiny Hut blows.

Dude.

You are profoundly not getting this, because you seem to want it to be an adversarial thing between the DM and the players. That isn't how most DMs roll.

It's about interesting vs. boring, roleplaying stuff out vs. nothing happening. Tiny Hut means there's never anything to worry about shelter-wise. You're never digging into the snow. You're never finding a cave in the mountains. You're never sleeping a beautiful tree-covered bower.

Because you're always sleeping in a damn magic bubble. One of the key part of fantasy, the journey is basically being thrown away, by this single weird spell. It's not about "night attacks", what a yawn, it's about being part of the world, rather than basically hitting the "sleep" button and simply fading to black.

The "Dispel magic" angle is so laughable I'm not even going to engage with it. It's ridiculous and shows you're not understanding the issue, fundamentally.

Those two tropes apparently just don't hold enough water anymore to make the designers want to allow for them in the rules. And there's nothing we can do about it except remove the offending bits from the game on our own.

No.

Only two classes in 5E even have Tiny Hut.

Claiming designers "don't want to allow for them" is just another error on your part. Unless you have a Bard or Wizard, you don't get Tiny Hut. That means likely most groups don't get it. But for those who do have those classes, particularly at level 7+, then suddenly this weird bubble invalidates a huge amount of the vibe of fantasy travel and exploration.

 

[James Gasik]

So I was talking to one of my old friends I used to game with back in AD&D, and he reminded me of the time I got a DM mad at me because whenever we would go to rest, I'd use Alarm (and if I had a room to sleep in, Wizard Lock) to foil enemies being able to ambush us while we were napping.

He felt it was somehow "unfair" that I could just cast a spell and stymie such tactics. I wonder how he'd feel about 5e if he wasn't one of those DM's who've been griping for 22 years about "that horrible WotC edition" (3e)!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think tiny hut is the best example. Up till at least 3.x it was basically a tent the Wizard could use to rget in a good night's sleep if there was a storm IF they dedicated a spell slot to it the last time they took a rest. Now in 5e tiny hut is an improved version of the much higher level force cube spell that makes an invincible bunker for a group of almost any table size plus some npcs... Except that bunker does not just protect against a storm., now it protects against toxic air, active volcanos, ancient dragons, vision & much more. It's not really even believable as a power for marvel super heroes, Gene grey/Phoenix could do some of that but only SOME and telekinesis/telepathy was pretty much of her entire powerset... Tiny hit is a footnote & the same munchkinize dial gets applied all over in 5e.

Tiny Hut also takes away a lot of the design space that could be filled by other spells, abilities and magic items.

One of my feedback items for the most recent non-1D&D UA was that the very flavorful House of Cards spell needed to be either a lower level or dramatically retooled, because it was the same level as Tiny Hut and was worse in every possible way.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

2edmg pg120 "A potion of healing is a fairly necessary item, something the DM may want to be readily available to the characters. Therefore, it
should be cheap, costing no more than 200 gp."
Healing potions have been a thing for a long time 4e was it's own thing but in 2e & 3.x adventuring was dangerous enough that an NPC shopkeeper saying something like "we have a bunch of those better greater healing potions" or "we got a new wand of cure moderate wounds if you're looking to buy!" IME an NPC pushing things like greater & better potions might get a player to buy one 150gp2d4+4 greater potion & just top it off with whatever they need for as comfortable 4 or so of the regular ones in their pack. Those things were rare and important. Now the high magic baseline of death saves+healing word's extreme power the PCs don't care.

5e encourages the players view death as something chained up & caged in the locked basement of another building so don't feel any urge to buy the powerful healing stuff the NPC is pushing like they did when they knew it could be breathing down their neck at a moment's notice. That results in a situation where the GM looks like they hit the PCs with a train if they actually introduce a situation where the group might need those better healing potions to avoid the severe consequences they now have no way of even diverting thanks to a lack of investment in other areas like the now superfluous buff/debuff/control abilities too.

I mean, this seems like a very peculiar and weird problem that you care about a lot, but that's not a major issue, to me? The potion "problem" you're describing. And also, it's saying the basic healing potion is vital - which is true - not "pushing expensive healing potions on the PCs is a must!" or something. Right?

I still don't agree with your "chained up" metaphor and it make no sense to your own "hit by a train" argument. It's more like, in 5E, death is this thing that seems very avoidable until suddenly it isn't. That's not "locked up in another room", because then you'd have zero worries. I'm not sure what the metaphor should be, but the chained up one is literally nonsensical when combined with your own argument! Pick a lane, dude. You can't have death be both locked up safely and suddenly appearing out of nowhere!

I do agree that the lack of effective buff/debuff/control abilities thanks, in large part the weird attitude of "ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING MUST USE CONCENTRATION!!!!!!" is not great design. I think we could stand to see quite a few spells stop being concentration in 1D&D.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Dude.

You are profoundly not getting this, because you seem to want it to be an adversarial thing between the DM and the players. That isn't how most DMs roll.

It's about interesting vs. boring, roleplaying stuff out vs. nothing happening. Tiny Hut means there's never anything to worry about shelter-wise. You're never digging into the snow. You're never finding a cave in the mountains. You're never sleeping a beautiful tree-covered bower.

Because you're always sleeping in a damn magic bubble. One of the key part of fantasy, the journey is basically being thrown away, by this single weird spell. It's not about "night attacks", what a yawn, it's about being part of the world, rather than basically hitting the "sleep" button and simply fading to black.

The "Dispel magic" angle is so laughable I'm not even going to engage with it. It's ridiculous and shows you're not understanding the issue, fundamentally.

No.

Only two classes in 5E even have Tiny Hut.

Claiming designers "don't want to allow for them" is just another error on your part. Unless you have a Bard or Wizard, you don't get Tiny Hut. That means likely most groups don't get it. But for those who do have those classes, particularly at level 7+, then suddenly this weird bubble invalidates a huge amount of the vibe of fantasy travel and exploration.

Well put. I will only add that, IME, I have never encountered a group of 5e PCs that didn't include either a bard or a wizard. Usually a bard, since in 5e they can do basically anything.

 

[Eric V]

Here is the ultimate irony though... the 4E mantra of "skip to the good stuff" was skipping the roleplay event with the town guard to get to the combat encounter inside the gates. The 5E mantra of "skip to the good stuff" is skipping unnecessary combat encounters to get to the roleplaying event where your characters can actually engage with the narrative of what is happening in the world.

It's amazing to me how much the raison d'etre of the two games just swapped so completely.

Mmmm...not really. The presence of Skill Challenges in 4e tells me it wasn't all about combat, not matter what people predestined to complain about 4e would say.

 

[Mort]

Only two classes in 5E even have Tiny Hut.

Claiming designers "don't want to allow for them" is just another error on your part. Unless you have a Bard or Wizard, you don't get Tiny Hut. That means likely most groups don't get it. But for those who do have those classes, particularly at level 7+, then suddenly this weird bubble invalidates a huge amount of the vibe of fantasy travel and exploration.

Just as a point of order:

Clerics can also get Tiny Hut - if they take the twilight domain. Because the Twilight domain wasn't already irritating enough!

 

[Mort]

Well put. I will only add that, IME, I have never encountered a group of 5e PCs that didn't include either a bard or a wizard. Usually a bard, since in 5e they can do basically anything.

Bards are great, my campaign has had a bard instead of a wizard for years. And looks like the spelljammer campaign I'm starting will continue that trend. BUT:

Bards cannot match the sheer versatility of the wizard. And also, unlike the wizard, tiny hut is actually a significant cost for the bard because they get only a specific number of spells. A bard taking tiny hut is actually making a sacrifice - lots of good 3rd level spells!

 

[Fanaelialae]

Just as a point of order:

Clerics can also get Tiny Hut - if they take the twilight domain. Because the Twilight domain wasn't already irritating enough!

Also, anyone (with Int or Wis 13+) can gain it by taking the Ritual Caster feat and then scribing the spell.