D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Fanaelialae]

I would love for someone to actually make that class.

I don't recall the specifics, but I think I saw a Chaos Warrior class on DMs Guild a while ago.

 

[Minigiant]

Wouldn't really fit with the theme of the thread though, would it?

Part of the reason for the desire of less magic is TSR and WOTC taking the easy route and making everything a spell instead of its own subsystem.

Until the types of magic are carved out and given strengths and weaknesses, we will get "everything is a spell" dominance.

Shifting enduring buffs onto another subsystem could be another slice needed off basic spellcasting.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Part of the reason for the desire of less magic is TSR and WOTC taking the easy route and making everything a spell instead of its own subsystem.

Until the types of magic are carved out and given strengths and weaknesses, we will get "everything is a spell" dominance.

Shifting enduring buffs onto another subsystem could be another slice needed off basic spellcasting.

This...

There is an empty space in D&D for a empowered humanoid warrior class similar to Warhammer's Space Marines, Chaos Warriors, and Grail Knights where the PC is turned into a 7 foot hulking mass of muscle with x-ray eyes, steel skin, and 3 hearts because some god fancies them, they ate a dragon heart, or they drank a bunch of options at once and didn't keel over.

...is well out of bounds IMO. Whether features come from a spell or some "other subsystem", it is still "magical" in that it is not mundane or anywhere near it.

If such a class existed in D&D, it would only exacerbate the issue, not help it.

 

[Garthanos]

People thinking skills can be used constantly and at peak performance I don't know what world they live in, that isn't even realistic (and no I do not think realistic is a good D&D goal.

The recent battlemaster maneuvers like Commanding Prescence is explicitly a fairly open ended buff to social ability checks with a resource/frequency limit. A person who went warlord route (which in 5e BM means Charisma emphasis), and managed to get expertise at it could be hitting impossible stunts with it... if the bursts achievable are high enough you just need to define the "impossible" stunts for skills.

Criticals on skill use could help the Champion even. Rogues? sigh

The battlemaster maneuver Menacing Attack which allows one to frighten an adversary I would argue is also a buffed use of a skill Intimidation, it lacks much scaling which I would say is somewhat true for all maneuvers but that is a separate issue.

Level Up has soldiering knacks one where you can add your proficiency to a strength check an additional time (independent of skills) and another explicit buff for jump distances it peaks at 3x.

These are indicators of 5e ways that might allow skills to have bursts of greater proportion

Will they feel like magic when stunts reach hitting the impossible? Warrior Magic? shrug that is kind of a goal particularly at high levels. Level Up gives a martially universal resource representing extraordinary effort to a degree, so rogues / monks / berserkers / rangers / marshals and even their version of paladins can all tap into it (and maybe do the impossible sometimes)

 

[Cadence]

Will they feel like magic when stunts reach hitting the impossible? Warrior Magic? shrug that is kind of a goal particularly at high levels. Level Up gives a martially universal resource representing extraordinary effort to a degree, so rogues / monks / berserkers / rangers / marshals and even their version of paladins can all tap into it (and maybe do the impossible sometimes)

Like the Gunfighters Girt, Swashbucklers Panache, and Sleuth's Luck in PF 1e too.

 

[Fanaelialae]

This...


...is well out of bounds IMO. Whether features come from a spell or some "other subsystem", it is still "magical" in that it is not mundane or anywhere near it.

If such a class existed in D&D, it would only exacerbate the issue, not help it.

What is and isn't outside bounds is rather abitrary IMO.

There are plenty of warriors in myth that are unquestionably exceptional without being explicitly magical. My go to is usually Beowulf, who ripped a giant monster's arm off with his bare hands. But there are quite a number, particularly if you are willing to look beyond European myths.

Moreover, it seems as though most folks consider it okay as long as the magic comes from some bauble or trinket, rather than being innate. Give the fighter the powers of a chaos warrior and you've crossed the line for many, but make him an ordinary fighter who carries a cursed demon sword that gives him the powers of a chaos warrior, and then it's fine.

 

[Minigiant]

This...


...is well out of bounds IMO. Whether features come from a spell or some "other subsystem", it is still "magical" in that it is not mundane or anywhere near it.

If such a class existed in D&D, it would only exacerbate the issue, not help it.

I disagree.

Your complaint was with "flying wizards, teleportation, and.... magic huts". You said you "never had any problem with mighty magic weapons and regions of mystical mysteries lost for ages, where strange and unusual were common occurrences."

I'm suggesting that some peasant boy eats a strange mushroom in the forest or steal some unmarked potion from the town alchemist and getting 20 Strength, 20 Dexterity, and 20 Constitution, and 2 feet of height like Captain America or Batman

There could be supernatural options to grow wings or fins or just have mundane options like 20 ft of speed or harder fists.

Again a lot of the magic spells exist and grow is because there nonmagical, mundane, and non-spell subsystems are poorly supported.

 

[DND_Reborn]

What is and isn't outside bounds is rather abitrary IMO.

Sure (which is why I said "IMO"...).

There are plenty of warriors in myth that are unquestionably exceptional without being explicitly magical. My go to is usually Beowulf, who ripped a giant monster's arm off with his bare hands. But there are quite a number, particularly if you are willing to look beyond European myths.

Again, sure, but that isn't the same as x-ray eyes, steel skin, etc. as was the suggestion.

Moreover, it seems as though most folks consider it okay as long as the magic comes from some bauble or trinket, rather than being innate. Give the fighter the powers of a chaos warrior and you've crossed the line for many, but make him an ordinary fighter who carries a cursed demon sword that gives him the powers of a chaos warrior, and then for many it's fine.

Yes. An item being magical is one thing--a person being magical is another.

I disagree.

Your complaint was with "flying wizards, teleportation, and.... magic huts". You said you "never had any problem with mighty magic weapons and regions of mystical mysteries lost for ages, where strange and unusual were common occurrences."

Yes, I never had problems with that IN PRIOR EDITIONS of D&D (in case you missed that). Now, in 5E, I have a problem with it.

I'm suggesting that some peasant boy eats a strange mushroom in the forest or steal some unmarked potion from the town alchemist and getting 20 Strength, 20 Dexterity, and 20 Constitution, and 2 feet of height like Captain America or Batman

There could be supernatural options to grow wings or fins or just have mundane options like 20 ft of speed or harder fists.

All transforming them into magical beings--not my goal, personally. It might be a viable "solution" for people who feel as I do, but not for me.

Again a lot of the magic spells exist and grow is because there nonmagical, mundane, and non-spell subsystems are poorly supported.

Which is why I am all for removing a lot of spells from D&D which make the social and exploration pillars practically pointless.

Spells like Tenser's Transformation need to go, for instance.

 

[Minigiant]

Yes, I never had problems with that IN PRIOR EDITIONS of D&D (in case you missed that). Now, in 5E, I have a problem with it.

Well then the question becomes.

What changed?

Why was it okay before but not okay now?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Again, sure, but that isn't the same as x-ray eyes, steel skin, etc. as was the suggestion.


Yes. An item being magical is one thing--a person being magical is another.

In Eastern myths you have tales of blind swordsmen who can fight better than those with sight, and warriors who can harden their bodies to iron-hard imperviousness. These things aren't seen as magical, but rather as the results of extreme training and skill (in other words, things that technically anyone could learn to do, assuming they could endure the training).

The primary issue I have with items in D&D is that because magic items are normally DM-gated, martial players have little agency over what they get, unlike casters who can pick their spells. I'd be fine if the epic abilities of martials defaulted to items that they get as class features. I could easily ignore that fluff and tell my players that their fighter can simply be inherently awesome, if that's their preference.