D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Vaalingrade]

I don't feel 20th level as I write this. Not only was I bullied a lot in school, eventually my patience ran out and I stopped turning the other cheek, then I beat up the bully that was bullying me. That made me popular in school for 2 weeks, then some other bully took his place until my patience ran out.

So not only did I have all those moral victories in social encounters, I won many more combats than Peter did.

Sliding timescale. For all we know, Peter was being bullied for decades.

That, or Flash is just that good at bullying.

 

[Minigiant]

Because its not what everyone wants out of a fighter, and game designers seem reluctant to create a class that would handle that archetype. Thats the real mystery to me. Maybe making such a class would be too close to admitting the game has shifted genres to superhero.

Not creating new classes is one of the main things I am baffled by 5e.

I could think of 2 classes desperately needed for 5e, 1 more that would help fit a requested fantasy, and 2 more it could really use to expand settings.

 

[Garthanos]

For me, I can't understand a fantasy world like that; any world with supernatural power is going to be infused with it, removing the magic from a fantasy world makes about as much sense as removing "chemistry" from ours.

This feels in keeping with how those who believed in magic saw it... we sometimes call someone a wiz now because of astonishing skill is a carry though. They just did it for everything and knocked the top of what could be accomplished via skill.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Translate spiderman to D&D and take away his 20k lbs lift capacity and it is not Spiderman. It's a much weaker D&D version, which just proves my point. D&D cannot do super.

So first, a god is not a PC, so Midnight and her powers don't count. Second, the rest of your stuff while technically do exist in a super hero world, would make superheroes that are too weak to do much more than stop bank robbers. They'd get their backsides handed to them by Spiderman(a middling power hero) and the vast majority of other heroes and villains.

Those low power heroes and villains exist to show just how good those of average ability(Spiderman) and the rest actually are.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I think there's a lot more that makes Spiderman Spiderman than what he can bench press.

I was referring to Midnight pre-ascension, obviously.

Also, her fighter buddy Kelemvor (pre-godhood, obviously) is basically a mini-Hulk when he unleashes his curse. He's an almost unstoppable killing machine. Easily at a level where he'd be a serious threat to someone like Spidey.

Several others on that list are well above stopping bank robbers. While I never read the novels, I know enough about them to know the DS Sun Mage took down the Dragon Kings.

 

[Maxperson]

You're welcome to your opinion, but I think there's a lot more that makes Spiderman Spiderman than what he can bench press.

Agreed. What he can bench press is a part of him that can't be removed, though, and still remain who he is. You can make a weak knockoff Spiderman, but he's not going to be Spiderman from Marvel.

I was referring to Midnight pre-ascension, obviously.

She was still essentially an avatar of a god. More than a PC.

Also, her fighter buddy Kelemvor (pre-godhood, obviously) is basically a mini-Hulk when he unleashes his curse. He's an almost unstoppable killing machine. Easily at a level where he'd be a serious threat to someone like Spidey.

No. Marvel Spiderman would one punch him. And with his Spider Sense and agility, Kelemvor wouldn't lay a hand on him. Now, weak knockoff Spiderman is a different story. Kelemvor might win that one.

 

[Gammadoodler]

To my mind, I think a lot of people think of magic as a kind of "opt-in", like a frosting you can choose to put on a cake but the underlying cake is the same. The fantasy world is pretty much Earth, except some people can shoot fireballs and some people have pointy ears and live a long time.

For me, I can't understand a fantasy world like that; any world with supernatural power is going to be infused with it, removing the magic from a fantasy world makes about as much sense as removing "chemistry" from ours.

Yeah. Definitely have seen that, and honestly, I don't have a problem with it...as a personal stylistic choice. It's not a choice I'm likely to make or agree with, but follow your bliss.

Where the gears start to grind is where this personal choice is presented with the weight of objective fact.

"XYZ cannot do ABC thing in a D&D game because it's not realistic.."

..is a bad argument 100% of the times it is applied outside your own table.

 

[Minigiant]

Here's the thing Minigiant doesn't get

Some D&D fans want start with the Earth Base

1. Revert it to Late Medieval-Early Renaissance
2. Remove the Science
3. Remove the Psuedoscience
4. Remove the Diplomacy
5. Remove the War Tactics and Strategems
6. Remove the Athletics and Acrobatics
7. Remove the Gunpowder
8. Add Magic Spellcasting
9. Allow Magic Spellcasting to Replace 2-7
10. Don't allow other forms of Magic other than Magic Items created by Magic Spellcasting

Then complain "There's too much Magic Spellcasting in D&D."

I mean if you remove every non-weapon non-armor "advancement" since 5000 BCE and inject Unrestricted Spellcasting, Spellcasting is going to be everywhere.

 

[Bill Zebub]

You bring up a good point though. "Realism" in the context of a fantasy game doesn't have a lot of objective utility.

Unless used to mean “realistic in the actual world.”

Which, until the last couple pages of this thread, is what I thought everybody understood it to mean.

 

[Bill Zebub]

For me, I can't understand a fantasy world like that; any world with supernatural power is going to be infused with it, removing the magic from a fantasy world makes about as much sense as removing "chemistry" from ours.

How about “technology” instead of “chemistry”? Does that change things?

 

[Garthanos]

You're welcome to your opinion, but I think there's a lot more that makes Spiderman Spiderman than what he can bench press.

Experienced adult Spidey (in the comics) has been compared favorably to the entire Xmen team before. Strange had difficulties figuring out if he had weaknesses. He almost always pulls his punches physically and Wolverine told him once that was his weakness... he isn't superman living in a cardboard world but... more potent than many give him creds for that street level crime he likes to tackle seems as much a sense of responsibility overload as anything.