D&D 5E Discussing Worldbuilding: Why Don't The Mages Take Over The World?

Chaosmancer

Legend
You are making a lot of campaign specific assumptions about spell casters here.

There is a lot of room for interpretation about warlocks in particular.

“In your study of occult lore, you have unearthed eldritch invocations, fragments of forbidden knowledge that imbue you with an abiding magical ability.”

“Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.”

There is also text about adventuring etc.

My only point here is that no where is it suggested warlocks are passively getting powerful: tutored and rewarded? Sure. But you can make a good case that they are actively pursuing knowledge.

You can also see that they adventure.

I don’t get the feeling that shiftless lackwits get 5, 10 or 15 levels of power—-just like that—-that the local rat catcher is suddenly formidable as a rule (without risk and adventuring).

In short: I don’t think this means spellcasters of high level are common. Nor that those that exist just happen due to patron whim. Maybe a low level one can happen like that but no ability likely means no advancement.

How common is a high charisma? I suppose you could get to high level with a 10….that would quite the feat! And once there your charm or command would not knock all of your foes down…

So if magic use is “common” in your world that does not presuppose that powerful magic users are. Think about the he local militia guy vs. the 10th level battlmaster. The former is common but does not mean the latter would be.

I'm not making nearly the number of assumptions you think.

Anyone can get magic by making a pact. This is true. Maybe you make a pact to be taught magic and it takes you time after the pact to learn any magic, but the Hexblade's patron is a weapon, and the GOO patron may not know you exist. Additionally, level 1 and 2 are explicitly apprentice levels. Basic beginning point for a class is supposed to be level 3. So, level 5 is just an experienced member of the class.

And I'm not going beyond 5 in most of my examples. The local military guys are about as good as a level 1 fighter, and I don't care about the level 10 battlemaster. I'm looking for the level 5 character. Which if we just use extra attack as our measure, is not that uncommon. They are uncommon, it isn't like every guard is a 5th level fighter. But it isn't like a 5th level fighter is some figure of legend who only serves as the greatest champion of the king either. It wouldn't be that uncommon for a captain of the guard to be a 5th level fighter, for example.

These are assumptions, but they aren't major ones. And since I'm not talking about 10th or 15th level characters, we don't need to worry as much about the rarity. 3rd to 5th level characters would be uncommon, but not unheard of.
 

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Fanaelialae

Legend
DMG page 231 I believe, it is the rule I was referencing.
That's specifically called out as a special reward, not unlike a magic item. It's not something where any character (not even a PC) can just go out and find the right trainer to train them.

There might be an exceptional teacher out in the world who could easily teach quantum mechanics to anyone. Just because one such individual might exist does not mean it's reasonable to infer that quantum mechanics is either easy to teach or easy to learn.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
So ... nobles aren't all identical but they use the same stat block because that's the default entry? So every male in the U.S. is 5'9" and 197.9 pounds (thanks google) because that's the average? You were the one making the claim that nobles would be easier to kill because your wizard has 22 HP and the noble only has 9, not me. 🤷‍♂️
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No, I was responding to the claim that noble wizards are more easily stabbed than muggle nobles.

But yes, you seem to have grasped the basic concept of what an average is and what a stereotype is. I didn't think this had to be a lesson on what "representative" meant, but here we are.


Nobles were rarely assassinated because personal combat capability of any individual is not particularly relevant when it comes to the functioning of a nation. Either every noble is the same or they are not. Either individual prowess at combat matters for most nobles or it does not. Choose a lane. Local warlords may need fighting prowess (whether martial or arcane), rulers of larger nations do not.

I've picked a lane.

Magic is useful to a ruler. I've noticed no one jumping up to tell me how the muggle rulers can unspoil grain or unpoison a well. Combat magic is still useful, even if far less so, because it makes you safer. Sure, only 1% of all nobles are killed violently, but the magical noble will not be part of that 1%. And over generations and generations of time, that selection pressure is likely to make a difference.

This isn't a bold claim, I'm not vacilating, I'm just responding to people's counter-arguments. Most of which have been "But the wizard would get stabbed! Because they can't fight!" Which, as you point out, is a non-issue, because personal combat ability doesn't really apply most of the time in the running of a state.

As far as the rest, I have no idea where you're coming from. If we assume that the individual combat expertise of a noble matters, there's no reason to believe that any PC class has a particular advantage. Back when leaders did go to battle*, they were there primarily as moral support and to inspire the soldiers. I think in many cases the soldier is going to be more motivated seeing a leader that's a fighter than someone running around twiddling their fingers.

But it's not particularly relevant. The power of the state does not lie in an individual except for the fact that an individual is a figurehead and symbol. People lined up for blocks to see Queen Elizabeth's coffin because she stood for something greater than the woman. She was a symbol, an idealized embodiment of national pride. She was beloved and, last I checked, she had nothing that would qualify her for combat duty even if she did join the armed forces for a period of time.

P.S. I was, again, using champion as a generic term as in the subclass of fighters and an off the top of my head example of a fighter not trying to one-up your wizard example. You're picking on minutiae instead of the content of the posting.

*Which died out by around 1500ish. Even before then most were never truly on the front lines, or if they were they were surrounded by the best troops available.

Situation 1: "Look boys, see that armored figure? That's our king, using his ancestral sword and fighting beside us. How inspiring!"

Situation 2: "Look in the sky, you see that? That's our King, he's watching over us, risking the arrows of the enemy. And when we charge, hes going to throw an orb of elemental flame at our enemies to break their formation. Look at him up there, and remember, he is fighting for us just as we fight for him."

See, the problem with "twiddling their fingers" is that it is usually followed by "and flies into the air like a bird" or "and kills six men in an explosion of flames" or "And brings back the dead". DnD magic isn't small and subtle. It isn't an old man muttering in the corner and causing a slight chill in the air. It is flashy. It is noticeable.

Additionally, why can't magic-using rulers be symbols? Why can't "they have mastered secrets beyond our understanding, and they have a plan" not be inspiring? Why can't they be embodiment of national pride? You keep making this claim that rulers are more than combat ability, but then you don't expain how being a magic-user cuts you off from those qualities of a ruler.
 

This entire thread is about campaign specific assumptions.
Casters rarity or overruling the world are campaign or world building decisions.

Why these are not proposed that much in official setting is more a question of marketing and players interests. I guess that is more easy for players to shine and be special in a world where magic is less dominant and overruling.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
It's about checks and balances.

A battlefield nurse having cure wounds is almost unquestionably a boon. But she doesn't wield great authority.

On the other hand, giving a leader magic is quite questionable. Sure, if they are pure and benevolent, they will likely never misuse such power. Ever heard the old adage about power corrupting?

A leader already wields tremendous power via their authority. However, there are checks on that power. If a leader commands the general to do something heinous, that general might refuse. Now imagine if that leader could Gate in an army of fiends? Or had his own private army of bound elementals on standby? No checks whatsoever.

There is little to no more good that a leader could do by having magic himself, versus having skilled mages in their employ. And the fact that the leader would have some of their power checked by having it in the hands of someone other than the leader would be a good thing.

How many nations are ruled by leaders where if the general refuses they are executed or removed from power?

Also, Gate is 9th level. Planar binding is 6th level. Read my post, spells of 6th through 9th level should be restricted access. Of course, we have to ask WHO is restricting access to these spells. How are they telling the rulers of nations "no" when they demand access? But assuming a functioning checks and balances system (which not every medieval nation had) then that still doesn't prevent 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells, the one's I've been talking about.

I'm not saying checks and balances are impossible, or that they aren't a good idea, but you seem to be assuming every single functioning nation is ruled by muggles, who keep checks on the power of spellcasters, because to do otherwise would lead to leaders abusing their powers and well.... how many evil nations exist in Greyhawk again? How many evil city-states exist in the Forgotten Realms? Why do these evil, power-hungry rulers care so much for preventing rulers and leaders from getting too much power and abusing their authority?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
That's specifically called out as a special reward, not unlike a magic item. It's not something where any character (not even a PC) can just go out and find the right trainer to train them.

There might be an exceptional teacher out in the world who could easily teach quantum mechanics to anyone. Just because one such individual might exist does not mean it's reasonable to infer that quantum mechanics is either easy to teach or easy to learn.

So, because it is possible for someone to find a trainer to teach them a skill, but it is listed as a special reward, it is impossible for someone to find a trainer to teach them a skill?

This is circular reasoning. Here's a different take.

It is incredibly difficult and expensive to find someone who can teach you a skill. They may ask for lots of money. Wealthy people have lots of money, so it will be easier for wealthy people to find that teacher tot teach them that skill.

Unless every single person capable of teaching that skill is a hermit who eschews the wealth of society and believes in being humble. Which.... kind of strange, isn't it? EVERYONE who can teach magic hates wealth and wants to be humble? In the entire world? I kind of doubt that.
 

Shadowedeyes

Adventurer
A lot of the arguments on both sides require interpretation. Warlock pacts for example. I wouldn't tend to assume that the patrons have an open door policy on pacts, so the idea you can just find one and they will say yes as a matter of course. Likewise, in my own campaign settings gods are picky about handing out divine power to someone, for various reasons that are not necessarily in line with another DM or setting's vision.

How impressive/inspirational magic would be is also opinion. In a high magic setting, which is the one where mages ruling everything would be more likely, magic is probably less impressive in the first place since even the common people have encountered it more regularly anyway.

In my opinion, the most important thing for a ruler to have is to have access to money, the right connections, and is good at managing public opinion of his rulership. Magic doesn't guarantee any of these things, although it might help sometimes, especially on the money part. I don't think mages(or any other spellcasting class) cannot and would not ever be a ruler, but I don't think spellcasting is so important to achieving rulership that it is a requirement.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
So, because it is possible for someone to find a trainer to teach them a skill, but it is listed as a special reward, it is impossible for someone to find a trainer to teach them a skill?

This is circular reasoning. Here's a different take.

It is incredibly difficult and expensive to find someone who can teach you a skill. They may ask for lots of money. Wealthy people have lots of money, so it will be easier for wealthy people to find that teacher tot teach them that skill.

Unless every single person capable of teaching that skill is a hermit who eschews the wealth of society and believes in being humble. Which.... kind of strange, isn't it? EVERYONE who can teach magic hates wealth and wants to be humble? In the entire world? I kind of doubt that.
High level characters have more money than they know what to do with. My high level character can spend all of their "useless" gold to buy unlimited skills and feats in your campaign? I don't know any DM who would allow that, but if you do that's your choice.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Wow. I know you sometimes make incredibly disingenuous arguments, but this takes the cake.

Mod Note:
Yeah, guess what? The personal attack isn't going to do you much good, because it just got you removed from this discussion.

Next time you want to make an argument, make it about what was written, not about the person who wrote it.
 

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