D&D (2024) Subclasses should start at 1st level

[Yaarel]

I already miss the extra magical secret at leve 6. Was exactly the right feature at the right time.

That said, I still think level 2 should be subclass. When making characters with new players, learning how the class works is enough.
A cool Idea could be that in the first 3 levels you can chose when to take the subclass feature, pushing your other features one level back.

If you multiclass, the order is fixed. You may not multiclass if you took subclass until level 3.

A bit more complicated, but it would be having your cake and eat it.

I understand what you are saying.

But for me, there must be a subclass choice at level 1.

A classic example, is a High Elf who is an Eldritch Knight.

It seems unlikely that this Elf culture would institute a Fighter tradition that was UNABLE to use magic until level 3.

It doesnt need to be much at level 1. But it has to be something.

The Bard at level 1 can pick an Inspiration that is appropriate to the subclass.

The Fighter at level 1 can pick a Fighting Style that is appropriate to the subclass.

Something.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I understand what you are saying.

But for me, there must be a subclass choice at level 1.

A classic example, is a High Elf who is an Eldritch Knight.

It seems unlikely that this Elf culture would institute a Fighter tradition that was UNABLE to use magic until level 3.

It doesnt need to be much at level 1. But it has to be something.

The Bard at level 1 can pick an Inspiration that is appropriate to the subclass.

The Fighter at level 1 can pick a Fighting Style that is appropriate to the subclass.

Something.

So, my idea would be that the elf just picks eldritch knight at level 1.

This pushes fighting style, second wind and action surge one level up.

 

[Yaarel]

So, my idea would be that the elf just picks eldritch knight at level 1.

This pushes fighting style, second wind and action surge one level up.

For the UA Bard, that would be a problem. The Lore subclass assumes the Bard already knows the Inspiration feature. So it couldnt precede it.

Level 1 itself needs a way to pick a subclass.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

For the UA Bard, that would be a problem. The Lore subclass assumes the Bard already knows the Inspiration feature. So it couldnt precede it.

Level 1 itself needs a way to pick a subclass.

I am really torn. One one hand, I would like subclass at level 1.
But besides new player concerns, my 100% ritual caster arcane trickster, should 100% a become a lore bard, and ended up college of swords, because of how the adventure went so far...

I think, If you are set on a character concept, you can now pick an appropriate feat (I took ritual caster as my v-human feat back then) and already play the character you wanted.

The eldritch knight can just start woth magic initiate now.
The valour bard can start with medium armor by taking the lightly armored feat...

Actually, probably if a subclass gives you medium armor, it should tell you to take the lightly armored feat, or any other first level feat, if you already have it.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I love that they seem to be standardizing subclass progression, but why start them at 3rd level instead of 1st? Even for the 2014 classes that get their subclasses after 1st level I have never actually seen a player wait until then to choose their subclass anyway.

You might not have - but I have. I've also seen subclasses change as a consequence of play and the player pick a different subclass at level 3 than they'd intended at level 1.

I'm going to say straight out that the subclass should not start at level 1 unless it is essential for the character concept that it does. You should instead have breathing room to develop your character, and specialisation is something that should develop rather than be locked in. To use some examples:

• The Warlock needs to start at level 1. You made a pact and what that pact is with is vastly influential
• There is absolutely no need to start the fighter or rogue at level 1. A level 1 champion, battlemaster, and rune knight are going to look basically the same anyway

Setting your subclass in stone at level 1 is the same mindset that required setting your feats in stone at level 1 in 3.X. Play to see what happens.

Of course I start at level 0 - but the characters should be level 3 by the end of session 4 if not 3.

 

[Yaarel]

• There is absolutely no need to start the fighter or rogue at level 1. A level 1 champion, battlemaster, and rune knight are going to look basically the same anyway

The Eldritch Knight Fighter needs to start at level 1, participating in magical culture.

The Psi Warrior Fighter needs to start at level 1, developing innate talent.

The Trickster Rogue often needs to start at level 1, either innate talent or magical culture.

Soulknife Rogue needs to start at level 1, developing innate talent.

Phantom Rogue needs to start at level 1, exhibiting affinity with the dead.

Paladin needs to start at level 1, typically a member of a specific order and sometimes a champion of a personal cause. The class is the result of a personal oath or commitment.

Cleric needs to start at level 1, typically a member of a specific spiritual community or personal calling.

Warlock needs to start at level 1, gaining magic as the result of a pact.

Bard often needs to start at level 1, developing magic as part of a college or family of Bards.

Druid needs to start at level 1, being an elementalist/weatherwitch or an animal/plant shapeshifter is quite different in concept.

Monk needs to start at level 1, typically a member of a monastic spiritual community, where the way of elements, or open hand, or shadow, are quite different traditions.

Sorcerer needs to start at level 1, developing a specific innate talent.

Wizards were everything magic in the earliest editions, but the Wizard today needs much more focus alongside other full caster classes. Focus requites level 1 character concept.

Most (all?) classes include concepts that require starting at level 1.



Ultimately, it is the players who have a specific character concept that they want to play, who decide it has to be level 1.

 

[Bill Zebub]

simple solution.

You cannot multiclass before level 5. When you take a level in new class, you need to take 4 levels of that class before you can gain levels in another class.

My preferred version of this is that if you have multiple classes and they are not equal, you must level the lowest one.

 

[Storyteller Hero]

Here's another possibility:

Make subclasses at higher than 1 BUT make them all have requirements that one could take at level 1.

As many subclass possibilities may overlap in their initial features, this opens up a bit of breathing room, lets people embark on a subclass "path" at level 1, and maintains the image of level 1 being the basics of a class before specialization is fully applied.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The Eldritch Knight Fighter needs to start at level 1, participating in magical culture.

No they don't. You can "participate in magical culture" with a first level magical adept feat. Or the Eldritch Knight can learn as a result of defeat.

The Psi Warrior Fighter needs to start at level 1, developing innate talent.

Which is why telepathy and telekinesis should be first level feats.

The Trickster Rogue often needs to start at level 1, either innate talent or magical culture.

Soulknife Rogue needs to start at level 1, developing innate talent.

See the Eldritch Knight and Psi Warrior respectively.

Phantom Rogue needs to start at level 1, exhibiting affinity with the dead.

No it doesn't. The Phantom only needs to start exhibiting affinity with the dead after they start killing them. It's not why they became a rogue.

Paladin needs to start at level 1, typically a member of a specific order and sometimes a champion of a personal cause.

Paladin does start at level 1. It's their subclass that doesn't as they learn what sort of paladin they are.

Cleric needs to start at level 1, typically a member of a specific spiritual community or personal calling.

Absolutely. And they then find which aspect of their faith they reflect as they spend time as a cleric.

Warlock needs to start at level 1, gaining magic as the result of a pact.

Yes. Warlock is a specific one where your pact needs to happen as part of your class. You got one. Congratulations. Never mind that I explicitly mentioned the Warlock as one that needs a level 1 subclass

Bard often needs to start at level 1, developing magic as part of a college or family of Bards.

That's called "Being a bard"

Druid needs to start at level 1, being an elementalist/weatherwitch or an animal/plant shapeshifter is quite different in concept.

This is a problem with the Druid class. The Shapeshifter IMO should be its own subclass - or several subclasses (I wouldn't say no to a wildshaping Ranger)

Monk needs to start at level 1, typically a member of a monastic spiritual community, where the way of elements, or open hand, or shadow, are quite different traditions.

That's called Being A Monk. Or, more accurately Monks learn techniques through study. But they also learn through the school of hard knocks.

Sorcerer needs to start at level 1, developing a specific innate talent.

Here's a second. Congratulations.

Wizards were everything magic in the earliest editions, but the Wizard today needs much more focus alongside other full caster classes. Focus requites level 1 character concept.

And they specialise as they study. The wizard still can focus at level 1 - it's called "spell selection". Level 3 on the other hand is when you start to benefit from focus in a way no one else can.

Most (all?) classes include concepts that require starting at level 1.

Indeed. All classes start at level 1. I'm not suggesting bringing back Prestige Classes. Subclasses on the other hand other than in rare cases don't have to start at level 1.

Ultimately, it is the players who have a specific character concept that they want to play, who decide it has to be level 1.

And if you want to do that you can go point buy. Meanwhile classes are broader than subclasses.

 

[Yaarel]

I am really torn. One one hand, I would like subclass at level 1.
But besides new player concerns, my 100% ritual caster arcane trickster, should 100% a become a lore bard, and ended up college of swords, because of how the adventure went so far...

I think, If you are set on a character concept, you can now pick an appropriate feat (I took ritual caster as my v-human feat back then) and already play the character you wanted.

The eldritch knight can just start woth magic initiate now.
The valour bard can start with medium armor by taking the lightly armored feat...

Actually, probably if a subclass gives you medium armor, it should tell you to take the lightly armored feat, or any other first level feat, if you already have it.

I like how the UA consistently goes with a "do this thing or choose an other thing" approach.

Perhaps it is easy for every base class to have its main feature be "take this thing, or choose something relating to your subclass".

For the Bard, the main feature (besides spellcasting) is Inspiration. It is easy for Bardic Inspiration to say, you gain Boost Test. You also gain Heal or else an other Inspiration of your choice relating to your subclass.

For the Fighter, a main feature is Fighting Style. It is easy for the Style to say, you gain the sword-and-shield Fighting Style, or else choose an other Style relating to your Fighter subclass.



In this case, the player who is playing a Lore Bard, will get the Boost Test, but also still has a choice whether to take the Heal Inspiration or else the Cutting Words Dis-Inspiration at level 1.

Likewise, the Eldritch Knight player, still has a choice about whether to take a magical Fighting Style, or else one of the other Fighting Styles at level 1.



For the Fighter, it might also be possible to choose between Heavy Armor, or else some other feature, depending on the character concept. The Dex Fighter wont need the Heavy Armor and might need something else. The Eldritch Fighter might want the Heavy Armor or else gain the Mage Armor spell instead.



The point is. Level 1 can make sure a main feature is optional to allow for significant subclass concepts to find expression.