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D&D General Younger Players Telling Us how Old School Gamers Played

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
it kind of is... and is the point of the video.

If you had asked me in 1995 I didn't know who Gary was, and I def didn't know this was based on him and his friends playing (mostly) wizards with hirelings going into the dungeon... in 1998 I DID know pieces of that, but even today I learn more and more.

The oldest player I knew started in late 70's with a photo copy he got at college, not even a book. (He is not with us anymore because of cancer) He had told us stories in the early 2000's of his first games being more like the type adventures in old school computers... they would be in the woods and go a direction and find things or be attacked or what ever... he said the first year he played he didn't think he played inside a dungeon OR a town for more then half an hour or so.
He AND the next oldest talking about 1e had very different stories. to the point where (like now with 5e on here) it almost feels like they were not playing the same game.
1 of them was 'training' with multi other party members and picking up class features while trying to juggle dungeons and politicking.
the other was acting more like a war game building armies of hirelings and followers

not 1 of those stories from either of those two ever had even a hint of 1 day=1day... BUT my buddy who learned from his uncle in the 80's told us second hand stories that were a mix between the other two.


1997-98 was a big change for us as a group... new people came into the college game and as such our home games and we started going to cons... the entire style of game we played and an changed then and again in 2000 with 3e...
But what I’m saying is, it’s an abandoned or lost tradition, not an orphaned one. Like you said, these games were all different but none of them had the 1 real day = 1 game day rule. So it’s not something that got carried on while the reason for doing so was lost (like cutting the corners off the meat without realizing that was done to fit a specific piece of cookware), instead it got dropped entirely. I suppose you could argue it’s the dish in this analogy, rather than the act of cutting the meat. But I think that’s an unintuitive reading, which was exactly my point. The analogy is applicable, but in an awkward way that might make it more confusing than enlightening.
 

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A lot of this feels like an attempt to deflect that people did play that way and that culture of play is worthy of discussion. Sure. It represents a subsection of play, but that subsection of play is the beating heart of OSR culture. How any given group played at any particular time isn't really the worthwhile question here. OSR play is not about playing games using techniques laid out in texts like Moldvay B/X to somehow capture the spirit of old, but because there's like a really fun game in playing to that text as directed. How anyone played in the 80s is immaterial to that.
OK, but the premise RIGHT AT THE START, like 0:00 of the video is that there's some 'unknown rule' that "explains the old school style of play." It isn't posited like "there's this particular rule in D&D that you can abide by which does X" instead it is posited as some sort of rosetta stone to explain it. The first issue is, as one of my posts in this thread already explains, his interpretation of the 'rule' (Volume 3, Page 35) is inaccurate and overgeneralized, let alone likely to have even worked, let alone be rigorously adhered to, in actual practice. Yes, if your character is COMPLETELY IDLE, Gary is suggesting that time flow for that PC as it would in the real world. Now, D&D doesn't say too much else about time, but AD&D speaks about tracking it systematically and precisely. So in that game (which many people don't call old school at all) yes, there might be an implication as to which PCs are present at a certain place and time (say to form a party).

I don't see how that is very significant, and I would bet my life's savings that such a rule was fundamentally retrospective. That is if your PC went to his house at the end of last session, so this rule might apply, then assuming you DIDN'T at today's session state that you rejoined the other PCs (who, say, adventured on Tuesday and thus are just now arriving at the town gate) then sure, "a week passes for him" (and presumably you've elected to play some other character). Should the player choose to state that the character got up on Tuesday and met the other PCs at the gate, well, then he obviously didn't sit at home! LOL. I mean, I can't literally tell you this is how Gary and Co played at any given point in time, but I can tell you that, from a 1975 D&Der's perspective, that would be how it pretty much always played out.

The video then, at around 3:00 starts telling us HOW PEOPLE PLAYED in the 1970s. Again, I cannot say who did what with any authority, but I played a LOT of D&D back then with various people. Were there games that had nothing but a dungeon and some thin backdrop? Yeah, I guess so, but note that the very book the guy quotes is titled "The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures" and interestingly the rule on page 35 actually has 2 separate categories, Dungeon and Underworld (though I am unsure as to what the distinction is intended to be). While 'Town Adventures' are not really discussed as a possibility in D&D that I recall, they certainly were a significant type as well. Heck, I need not go further than pointing out that the JG product "City State of the Invincible Overlord" and its sister product "Wilderlands of High Fantasy" are specifically designed to provide ready made material for non-dungeon adventuring, and they sold really well (for 1970s RPG supplements at least). What I'm saying is, the guy in the video IS saying people played a certain way in the 1970s, and the way he describes is, at best, a distorted view of the actual situation that I can attest to. Beyond that, its entirely inaccurate of him to say we didn't know about the "rule" on Page 35, or the contents of the (much debated I may add) section on time keeping in the 1e DMG. People knew all about it, certainly the competent DMs I was around knew the 1e DMG inside and out! Heck I can probably still quote sections from memory 40 years later. We really didn't care what EGG said about anything.

I will say, there were quite a few Holmes or later Red Box players who were kids who might have played sort of like what the video is talking about. We had a club for instance where you could just bring a character sheet and join a party, usually. Mostly that was just playing TSR modules, and I'm sure many kids that had Basic played that sort of game. I'm unconvinced there's much theoretically to say about that sort of play, as "rocks fall, you're dead!" was also probably a pretty frequent refrain at that level play if you get my drift. Anyone that was really playing a campaign, like what is depicted in Stranger Things, they were not playing something resembling what the video is hypothesizing. At best its conclusions must thus be considered rather dubious! It seems to mix several styles and views about play incoherently, AT BEST.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
.... At best its conclusions must thus be considered rather dubious! It seems to mix several styles and views about play incoherently, AT BEST.


All of this is well-said.

The only thing I would add is (again) a lot of us have recommended the recent book The Elusive Shift as it really provided a wonderful overview as to how weird and diverse D&D (and TTRPGs) were in the 70s.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The video then, at around 3:00 starts telling us HOW PEOPLE PLAYED in the 1970s. Again, I cannot say who did what with any authority, but I played a LOT of D&D back then with various people. Were there games that had nothing but a dungeon and some thin backdrop? Yeah, I guess so, but note that the very book the guy quotes is titled "The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures" and interestingly the rule on page 35 actually has 2 separate categories, Dungeon and Underworld (though I am unsure as to what the distinction is intended to be). While 'Town Adventures' are not really discussed as a possibility in D&D that I recall, they certainly were a significant type as well. Heck, I need not go further than pointing out that the JG product "City State of the Invincible Overlord" and its sister product "Wilderlands of High Fantasy" are specifically designed to provide ready made material for non-dungeon adventuring, and they sold really well (for 1970s RPG supplements at least). What I'm saying is, the guy in the video IS saying people played a certain way in the 1970s, and the way he describes is, at best, a distorted view of the actual situation that I can attest to. Beyond that, its entirely inaccurate of him to say we didn't know about the "rule" on Page 35, or the contents of the (much debated I may add) section on time keeping in the 1e DMG. People knew all about it, certainly the competent DMs I was around knew the 1e DMG inside and out! Heck I can probably still quote sections from memory 40 years later. We really didn't care what EGG said about anything.
The Isle of Dread, a module that is commonly held up as a fantastic sandbox wilderness adventure was written in 1981 for BECMI. The idea that dungeons were everything wasn't even true on an official level.
 

@AbdulAlhazred

Thanks for posting that. My first thought on "newed" is that is is "nested". And I interpreted the bit about "underworld adventures" to be a gloss on the dungeon expedition rule - note that the 1 week is for prep plus a 1-day expedition; if you're doing a more-than-one-day expedition then you're in the throes of an expedition into the underworld and are subjected to the 1-imaginary-day-per-real-day rule: which I think favours players over the GM/monsters, as it allows them to rest up without being subject to wandering monster checks. I can imagine in practice that a session like that would end with the GM getting the players to explain what they do to remain safe in the dungeon/underworld, given that they've not left it as per the more typical 1-day-in-and-out mode of dungeon expedition.
That might be an interpretation, but it seems to go against the whole 'naturalistic' bent of things, IMHO. That is, I think that the explanation of 'Underworld' is actually elucidated best by reference to the 'D' series of modules. OTOH Volume 3 itself seems to use 'Dungeon' and 'Underworld' as synonyms, except on page 35! So, I have a suspicion that page 35 is using the term in more the way the 'D' modules illustrate a fantastical underground wilderness-like geography that is somewhat disconnected from the traditional 'dungeon' concept. The text of page 35/36 is still problematic though, as it doesn't easily explain why you would want to pass time at a real world rate for some PCs stuck in the underworld where supplies are super limited and they are presumably totally isolated. It seems odd. Either that or we have to figure out which of 2 rules (1 week per expedition or 'real world time') applies in the dungeon.
At the heart of the "rule", it seems to me, is a way of allotting downtime without having to actually play it out; while recognising that wilderness exploration needs its own distinct approach to tracking time. It fits well with abstracted upkeep rules (like the 100 gp per level per month suggested in Gygax's DMG). Personally I think that the Torchbearer 2e approach to this - adventure phase, camp phase and town phase - is superior, although TB does drop one of Gygax's options: Gygax has in mind that different PCs can easily end up at different places on the imaginary calendar, resulting in restrictions on who can adventure with whom. Whereas TB simply stipulates that all PCs must all be in the same phase together.
Right, if you read the text in the 1e DMG it makes all this VERY clear. The whole POINT there is to track the distribution of characters in time and space such that the whole campaign has a coherent conception of 'now'. The DM can 'fudge' here and there, allowing some PCs to move ahead of others, but he points out this may put constraints on action, or require some players to suspend the play of certain PCs in order to resolve other parts of the timeline first (IE if your party enters a dungeon level where other PCs incomplete play session is in progress still from an early timeframe). This is one reason why there is an emphasis on episodic play too, because it means these situations are less likely to arise. If the PCs always exit the dungeon at the end of the Saturday session, then the Monday Night game is free to enter, AND the 'real time passing' rule could then be handy as just a quick way to say "well, you party for a week at the Tavern, and then hit the dungeon again." Now you KNOW that whatever the Saturday crew did has passed chronologically and the Monday crew will find the dungeon in whatever condition they left it, modulus any updates.

So, when you look at it that way, you see that PART of what video guy is saying KINDA makes sense. However, it makes a LOT more sense from the standpoint of a single DM running many groups on different days, with PCs potentially exchanging between parties, going off on their own, etc. In point of fact, as I understand it, Gary and a couple of the other participants in his group DID 'co-DM' to a degree, so that different people DMed for various people on different days in the same campaign world. I assume they had to assiduously exchange notes somehow if the potential arose for cross over between these sessions, but I also suspect they almost always were present as players in the sessions they didn't run. I just think that there's a pretty large amount of subtle difference between the way the video puts it and how the game was designed to play.
 

pogre

Legend
I was curious and went back and checked out the creator's channel on Youtube and I got to give him credit - he has amassed an impressive number of video views. This video in particular is by far his most popular original content. He has a couple of more popular videos, but those are Critical Role commentaries.

He has to be tickled about this thread. His lesson out of this? Annoy old time players! ;)
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I was curious and went back and checked out the creator's channel on Youtube and I got to give him credit - he has amassed an impressive number of video views. This video in particular is by far his most popular original content. He has a couple of more popular videos, but those are Critical Role commentaries.

He has to be tickled about this thread. His lesson out of this? Annoy old time players! ;)
Just annoy somebody seems to be the magic ingredient for these youtube vids. Misery loves company. Enjoy a Friday tune on me.
 

Oofta

Legend
As someone who started playing in the 70s, all I can say is that much of what he says is "the way" we played back then doesn't sound familiar at all. Yes, when we first started playing we probably had more dungeon centered games because we were teens and it took us a while to wrap our heads around what the game could be. But my first campaign world map (a variation of which I still use today) was drawn up back then because we quickly expanded our scope. We did rotate DMs but that's something people still do to this day and was more just because we all wanted to play and DM.

There were a lot of things we rejected or modified. Most games had a heavy dose of house rules. So I think the biggest fallacy is that there was only one style or one cohesive way of playing back then. The rules were just a starting point and some things, like having time pass in game like the real world, were just looked at as oddities and ignored.

There's always this tendency to group people into monolithic units that all think and act the same. It's rarely accurate.
 
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As someone who started playing in the 70s, all I can say is that much of what he says is "the way" we played back then doesn't sound familiar at all. Yes, when we first started playing we probably had more dungeon centered games because we were teens and it took us a while to wrap our heads around what the game could be. But my first campaign world map (a variation of which I still use today) was drawn up back then because we quickly expanded our scope. We did rotate DMs but that's something people still do to this day and was more just because we all wanted to play and DM.

There were a lot of things we rejected or modified. Most games had a heavy dose of house rules. So I think the biggest fallacy is that there was only one style or one cohesive way of playing back then. The rules were just a starting point and some things, like having time pass in game like the real world, were just looked at as oddities and ignored.

There's always this tendency to group people into monolithic units that all think and act the same. It's rarely accurate.

All I recall from my very first game of D&D was we faced zombies
 


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