D&D (2024) Why no new packs since late September?

[Maxperson]

Because DPR can be defined and valued by math.

Okay, but it only tells a fraction of the story. It just plain is not all that there is to which class is more powerful and I won't allow people to reduce a class to DPR in an effort to try and win.

 

[Maxperson]

If the DM doesn't call for many Nature check but focuses on language and knowledge, the 2014 ranger is stronger.

Why is he stronger? The 2014 ranger gets no bonus on knowledge checks when in his favored terrains. He gets bonuses to knowledge checks ABOUT his favored terrains.

"When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled." Every knowledge check related to favored terrains is also a Nature check as that skill is for terrains, so the 5.5 ranger has expertise there as well.

And I'm not sure why you are bringing up languages. The 5.5e ranger gets languages as well. Maybe you mean the one bonus language for favored enemy, which really isn't a big deal when there are a lot of ways to communicate these days.

And the playtest burns through spells like a madman.

Is there something in the playtest that forces 5.5 rangers to use spells? Otherwise the rate of spell usage is entirely up to the player as it always has been.

And at actual dungeon delving,the 2014 ranger is far better.

Better than a 5.5 ranger with expertise in investigation and perception?

When I actually playtested the ranger in a dungeon, it ran out of spells so fast.

It gets the same amount of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. spell slots as the 2014 ranger, so if it ran out quickly that was on you not the class. It does get two fewer cantrips, but those have unlimited uses still, so you still wouldn't run out of spells faster.

You know what concentrationless Hunter's Mark does. Encourages players to cast it all the time and cast other spells on top of it.

Until you quickly realize that you run out of spells that way and stop, sure. Self-control is something you might need when playing the 5.5 ranger. A player's lack of self-control isn't a weakness of the class, though.

 

[mellored]

All in all, having nature expertise is going to be much better than two terrains with 5 corner case abilities and tracking which the 5.5 ranger can do better by selecting survival as his second skill.

So you took experience in nature and survival?
Then you don't get persuasion.

And the old ranger still gets perception, animal handling, medicine, insight against their favorite foe.

Old ranger gets 4 more expertise, in the right campaign. Plus all the other stuff you dismissed.

Big deal. He has a marginal number of extra uses

50% more uses at level 1. That's not marginal.

which is far more than mitigated by the sheer versatility the new bard has over the old bard.

Have you actually tried it?
Have you played the old and new bard side by side?

The corner case scenario of a monk running after archers doesn't change that.

I used it all the time on scouts and assassins. I'm losing versatility.

I get the feeling you would be complaining about how much more powerful the old classes where if these came out if a different order.

 

[dave2008]

They said why. They wanted players to make PC combinations they desired.

The designers though a 14 int halfling wizard was fine. The community didn't . So they made the +2/+1 float.

The designers though that cultural weapons doing nothing for warrior type classes was fine. The community didn't. So they let you trade out racial weapons and armor for tools.

I will agree to disagree as, IMO, we are talking about different things, but I don't care enough to waste more time on this discussion. Not saying you are not worth the time, but I don't want to spend my time on this subject.

 

[Minigiant]

Why is he stronger? The 2014 ranger gets no bonus on knowledge checks when in his favored terrains. He gets bonuses to knowledge checks ABOUT his favored terrains.

"When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled." Every knowledge check related to favored terrains is also a Nature check as that skill is for terrains, so the 5.5 ranger has expertise there as well.

And I'm not sure why you are bringing up languages. The 5.5e ranger gets languages as well. Maybe you mean the one bonus language for favored enemy, which really isn't a big deal when there are a lot of ways to communicate these days.

How many Intelligence or Wisdom skills are there?

A 2014 ranger gets Expertise of Arcane checks to identity local magical phenomenon or Medicine checks to use local herbs or Religion check to identity the Divine symbols of typical humanoids from your favored Terrain.

Is there something in the playtest that forces 5.5 rangers to use spells? Otherwise the rate of spell usage is entirely up to the player as it always has been

Playtest Favored Enemy doesn't do much if you don't cast Hunter Mark. And less if to don't cast another spell stop it to make use of the lack of concentration on HM.

t gets the same amount of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. spell slots as the 2014 ranger, so if it ran out quickly that was on you not the class. It does get two fewer cantrips, but those have unlimited uses still, so you still wouldn't run out of spells faster.

It lets you cast 2 concentration spells at once.

Until you quickly realize that you run out of spells that way and stop, sure. Self-control is something you might need when playing the 5.5 ranger. A player's lack of self-control isn't a weakness of the class, though

The point is the class features don't do anything unless you burn through all your spells fast.

 

[Maxperson]

So you took experience in nature and survival?
Then you don't get persuasion.

Sure. My point is that unlike the 2014 ranger, the 5.5 ranger has choices and can go well outside the traditional if the DM's game is going to be more social than outside in two limited terrain types.

And the old ranger still gets perception, animal handling, medicine, insight against their favorite foe.

Oh! Wow! Against one type of enemy you may never encounter or encounter only rarely! Here come some orcs! I'd better get right on the animal handling and medicine.

Look, favored terrain and favored enemy are kinda crappy since almost everything about them is corner case. That's why they are changing it to make it better for the 5.5 version.

Old ranger gets 4 more expertise, in the right campaign. Plus all the other stuff you dismissed.

Sure. I'll concede that in a very, very highly corner case campaign, the 2014 could be better if the 5.5 ranger doesn't take the skills to be just as good or better than the 2014 ranger.

50% more uses at level 1. That's not marginal.

It really is, since there's a good chance they will be wasted as the 10 minute mark passes, and since you don't have the option to be reactive like the 5.5 ranger is.

I'm not sure how you think 4 uses covering 40 minutes(max) of a 24 hour day is better than 2 reactive uses covering 24 hours. And eventually the 5.5 ranger has more uses of said superior reactive bardic inspiration.

Have you actually tried it?
Have you played the old and new bard side by side?

It's crystal clear that reactive uses covering 24 hours is superior to uses covering 40-50 minutes tops and that have to be used in advance during that time period.

You use it so that the monk can go charging some archers. 20 minutes later when you aren't aware of it you hit a deadly trap and the wizard dies because you couldn't use your inspiration as a reaction to help him make the save.

I used it all the time on scouts and assassins. I'm losing versatility.

Versatility is king. That's the main reason that wizards have historically been so broken.

I get the feeling you would be complaining about how much more powerful the old classes where if these came out if a different order.

You would likely be wrong.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Why is he stronger? The 2014 ranger gets no bonus on knowledge checks when in his favored terrains. He gets bonuses to knowledge checks ABOUT his favored terrains.

"When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled." Every knowledge check related to favored terrains is also a Nature check as that skill is for terrains, so the 5.5 ranger has expertise there as well.

And I'm not sure why you are bringing up languages. The 5.5e ranger gets languages as well. Maybe you mean the one bonus language for favored enemy, which really isn't a big deal when there are a lot of ways to communicate these days.

Is there something in the playtest that forces 5.5 rangers to use spells? Otherwise the rate of spell usage is entirely up to the player as it always has been.

Better than a 5.5 ranger with expertise in investigation and perception?

It gets the same amount of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. spell slots as the 2014 ranger, so if it ran out quickly that was on you not the class. It does get two fewer cantrips, but those have unlimited uses still, so you still wouldn't run out of spells faster.

Until you quickly realize that you run out of spells that way and stop, sure. Self-control is something you might need when playing the 5.5 ranger. A player's lack of self-control isn't a weakness of the class, though.

What you do is called cherry picking. Dismissing every disadvantage while overstating the advantages.

 

[Maxperson]

What you do is called cherry picking. Dismissing every disadvantage while overstating the advantages.

No. It's called experience. In close to 40 years of game play, most of the advantages of Favored Enemy and Terrain are pretty corner case. Nature on the other hand is broad and generally useful so long as you are in nature, which happens a lot.

 

[mellored]

Sure. My point is that unlike the 2014 ranger, the 5.5 ranger has choices and can go well outside the traditional if the DM's game is going to be more social than outside in two limited terrain types.

Yes.
But again, different =/= more powerful.

Oh! Wow! Against one type of enemy you may never encounter or encounter only rarely! Here come some orcs! I'd better get right on the animal handling and medicine.

One of those orcs might be hurt. Roll your insight to see.

I'm not sure how you think 4 uses covering 40 minutes(max) of a 24 hour day is better than 2 reactive uses covering 24 hours. And eventually the 5.5 ranger has more uses of said superior reactive bardic inspiration.

You don't see how handing out 4 buffs to each party member before kicking down the door to the big bads is better than using 2 reactions in combat?

It's crystal clear that reactive uses covering 24 hours is superior to uses covering 40-50 minutes tops and that have to be used in advance during that time period.

It's crystal clear that 4 uses is superior to 2 uses.

You use it so that the monk can go charging some archers. 20 minutes later when you aren't aware of it you hit a deadly trap and the wizard dies because you couldn't use your inspiration as a reaction to help him make the save.

You didn't use it on the monk, so the wizard is dead from the archers before you got to the trap.

Also, If I hit the trap, I die. Doesn't matter what version I have. Can't use it on myself.

Versatility is king. That's the main reason that wizards have historically been so broken.

Removing the ability to use it on scouts reduces my versatility.

Wizards historically had to be prepared, not reactive.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes.
But again, different =/= more powerful.

That Strawman fails on its face. I'm not claiming different = powerful.

One of those orcs might be hurt. Roll your insight to see.

Seeing as they are charging my party with swords and axes drawn, I really don't care if one is closer to death than the others.

You don't see how handing out 4 buffs to each party member before kicking down the door to the big bads is better than using 2 reactions in combat?

So now it's 12 uses(assuming a 4 PC group)? You only get to pick one PC per use and you don't encounter a big bad every day or even every week or even every month. You do roll both in AND out of combat, so those reactions will come in handy pretty much every day and in important situations that you can't anticipate. The 5.5 ability is not combat only.

It's crystal clear that 4 uses is superior to 2 uses.

Sure. You use your 4 uses of a BB gun and I will use 2 howitzers.

You didn't use it on the monk, so the wizard is dead from the archers before you got to the trap.

How? The wizard is at long range and has shield. We're outside so that the 2014 ranger can get some limited use from his abilities.

Also, If I hit the trap, I die. Doesn't matter what version I have. Can't use it on myself.

You didn't hit the trap.

Removing the ability to use it on scouts reduces my versatility.

-1 versatility + a bazillion versatility = a lot more versatility.

Wizards historically had to be prepared, not reactive.

Which doesn't change that versatility is king.

PS Don't think I haven't noticed that you completely ignored the 5.5 bard's healing ability with his inspiration, which is yet MORE versatility.