D&D General XP Awards for -- what????

[M_Natas]

Tracking XP is pretty much a waste if it's fundamentally a pacing mechanism (which it mostly is in modern D&D - you are pretty much going to get yours) and most content is curated to provide a challenge for these specific characters. It's fundamentally different if we're talking about static challenges or xp systems built to reward achieving objectives that are not mostly a given.

But creating encounters and worlds that Level with the Players is an encounter design and world building problem and not an XP problem.
But I agree that a world that levels with the players kills the feeling of progress you get from leveling. If every encounter feels equally difficult, why did we level at all?

 

[payn]

But creating encounters and worlds that Level with the Players is an encounter design and world building problem and not an XP problem.
But I agree that a world that levels with the players kills the feeling of progress you get from leveling. If every encounter feels equally difficult, why did we level at all?

Traveller is one of my favorite RPGs so you certainly dont even need to level. For D&D, I really like the bounded accuracy approach. The world makes sense and progress is shown slowly enough, without having to have infant punching to show progress for the PCs. YMMV.

 

[pointofyou]

It certainly is a pacing mechanism, but it's also something that, in part, drives my decisions when playing. I play in three games and DM one game. The three games are sandboxy, though the size and focus of the sandboxes varies a bit. Each one handles XP differently.

In the desert hexcrawl, we get XP for combat only, so we tend to beat things up a lot and take their stuff. Social only comes up when we think it might be amusing or puts off a tough challenge until we're in better shape to tackle it (then inevitably betray and kill them later).

In the West Marches style hexcrawl, we get XP for combat and for quests. So we choose the quests that will net us the most XP for the least amount of effort and fish for random encounters as much as possible between town and the quest location. I played in this one last night and went from 4th to 5th level in about 3 hours.

The third campaign is more of a town-to-megadungeon type setup, but we get XP more like Dungeon World End of Session move. The DM asks some questions and we have a conversation about it and get XP that way. One of the questions is "Did we battle any notable monsters?" The impact on play is that we don't actually seek out combats with as many things as possible like in the other two games, but rather just one notable thing then we're good (at least where that question matters - there are others).

So I guess whatever method you're using, consider what sort of play it's incentivizing because it will tend to have an impact on what your players actually do in your game. Story-based advancement incentivizes sticking to the prepared plot. It's not that great for games that don't have a plot. Session-based advancement incentivizes just showing up regularly and doesn't really incentivize playing any particular way. And so on.

And if you give something like story-based advancement for the characters' pursuing their own goals and interests the characters will pursue their own goals and interests. That matches the experience at my friend's tables.

 

[iserith]

And if you give something like story-based advancement for the characters' pursuing their own goals and interests the characters will pursue their own goals and interests. That matches the experience at my friend's tables.

Yep, that's right. My only dispute would be with a DM who either hides the "significant goals" needed to level up, in effect making it "you level when I feel like it." That takes it from being a thing that is earned to becoming a magnanimous DM gifting us something. No thanks.

For what you describe, I would use milestone leveling as defined by the D&D 5e DMG. You get set XP for a given reasonably defined goal (e.g. rescue the prince from the cultists, recover the jade monkey from the dungeon, resolve the conflict you have with your evil necromancer father, etc.).

 

[pointofyou]

Yep, that's right. My only dispute would be with a DM who either hides the "significant goals" needed to level up, in effect making it "you level when I feel like it." That takes it from being a thing that is earned to becoming a magnanimous DM gifting us something. No thanks.

For what you describe, I would use milestone leveling as defined by the D&D 5e DMG. You get set XP for a given reasonably defined goal (e.g. rescue the prince from the cultists, recover the jade monkey from the dungeon, resolve the conflict you have with your evil necromancer father, etc.).

I haven't noticed any complaints at my friend's tables. I don't know exactly what heuristic my friend is using but the levels haven't felt either unearned or unduly delayed. I figure there's room for both your preferences and my friend's approach. Though probably not at the same table.

 

[iserith]

I haven't noticed any complaints at my friend's tables. I don't know exactly what heuristic my friend is using but the levels haven't felt either unearned or unduly delayed. I figure there's room for both your preferences and my friend's approach. Though probably not at the same table.

Sure. Me stating my preference is not a judgment on anyone else's preferences. People like what they like. I just want to know the goal up front, so that I know what I need to do and that, when I've done it, I know I've actually earned it.

 

[M_Natas]

Another problem with milestone leveling is, that you can't outpace the DM. When the DM has a CR 12 Monster as the BBEG for the End fight, he will make sure, that you are level 12 (simplification, we all now a 12th level party will wipe the floor with one CR 12 creature).
With an XP system it is possible to outlevel the Endboss. Reach level 13 or 14 in a campaign that was supposed to go to 12.
With Milestones that is not possible.

 

[pointofyou]

Another problem with milestone leveling is, that you can't outpace the DM. When the DM has a CR 12 Monster as the BBEG for the End fight, he will make sure, that you are level 12 (simplification, we all now a 12th level party will wipe the floor with one CR 12 creature).
With an XP system it is possible to outlevel the Endboss. Reach level 13 or 14 in a campaign that was supposed to go to 12.
With Milestones that is not possible.

You describe that as a bug but there are some people who would think of that as something more like a feature. That opponent is what the DM told you it was and it was as serious a fight as you were promised.

The ability to turn such an opponent into a speedbump is also a feature. Some DMs would rather that happen through planning and approach and tactics than through outstripping the expected level. Opinions will of course vary here.

 

[iserith]

Another problem with milestone leveling is, that you can't outpace the DM. When the DM has a CR 12 Monster as the BBEG for the End fight, he will make sure, that you are level 12 (simplification, we all now a 12th level party will wipe the floor with one CR 12 creature).
With an XP system it is possible to outlevel the Endboss. Reach level 13 or 14 in a campaign that was supposed to go to 12.
With Milestones that is not possible.

I don't see this as a problem per se, but I think story-based advancement is a better choice for this type of adventure or campaign structure. (Which may be what you mean by "milestone." I prefer the D&D 5e DMG's definitions though.) The players are thus incentivized to stick to the plot so they can get to that CR 12 BBEG at the end game. Not my preference as a DM to design and run these sorts of games, but as a player I don't mind as long as I know what "significant goals" will allow me to level up. Ultimately it's a way for DMs to reduce prep time and preserve the prep they do create.

 

[tetrasodium]

You describe that as a bug but there are some people who would think of that as something more like a feature. That opponent is what the DM told you it was and it was as serious a fight as you were promised.

The ability to turn such an opponent into a speedbump is also a feature. Some DMs would rather that happen through planning and approach and tactics than through outstripping the expected level. Opinions will of course vary here.

In the case of 5e I think the problem is lesshow a level 12 party will wipe the floor with an encounter designed to challenge a level 8 or 10 partyso much as the fact that a level 8 or 10 party won't inversely find an encounter built for a level 12 party to be a thing that wipes the floor with the party without heavy force multiplying teamwork & nonrecoverable resource consumption.