D&D General XP Awards for -- what????

[payn]

Another problem with milestone leveling is, that you can't outpace the DM. When the DM has a CR 12 Monster as the BBEG for the End fight, he will make sure, that you are level 12 (simplification, we all now a 12th level party will wipe the floor with one CR 12 creature).
With an XP system it is possible to outlevel the Endboss. Reach level 13 or 14 in a campaign that was supposed to go to 12.
With Milestones that is not possible.

Hopefully the enemy can just wait while we do unrelated things to build up power to bulldoze them.

 

[Lanefan]

XP is Hardly number crunching. If the players can add gold, they have no problems with adding XP.

I think the reference was to the number-crunching the DM had to do before it got to the players.

But it's still a triviality.

And uneven leveling can be avoided by giving group XP instead of individual XP.

Uneven levelling is in no way a problem unless you're playing 3e or something adjacent. 4e is a bit more forgiving of a small level variance within the party, and 0-1-2-5e don't care until-unless the variance is huge.

 

[Lanefan]

Another problem with milestone leveling is, that you can't outpace the DM. When the DM has a CR 12 Monster as the BBEG for the End fight, he will make sure, that you are level 12 (simplification, we all now a 12th level party will wipe the floor with one CR 12 creature).
With an XP system it is possible to outlevel the Endboss. Reach level 13 or 14 in a campaign that was supposed to go to 12.
With Milestones that is not possible.

Flip side: you can't beeline to the Endboss and get there while still underpowered. In the above example you'd bypass a lot of the preamble stuff and get to the CR 12 Endboss when you're only still 9th-10th level - and find yourselves really up against it.

For me this is a feature.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Another problem with milestone leveling is, that you can't outpace the DM. When the DM has a CR 12 Monster as the BBEG for the End fight, he will make sure, that you are level 12 (simplification, we all now a 12th level party will wipe the floor with one CR 12 creature).
With an XP system it is possible to outlevel the Endboss. Reach level 13 or 14 in a campaign that was supposed to go to 12.
With Milestones that is not possible.

I've never gone off to grind to fight the main boss.

Also, you act like the DM can't just throw on some HD on the dude.

 

[Lanefan]

I've never gone off to grind to fight the main boss.

Also, you act like the DM can't just throw on some HD on the dude.

Correct - the DM can't in good faith do any such thing. Nor can she shave off a few HD if the party are underpowered.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Correct - the DM can't in good faith do any such thing. Nor can she shave off a few HD if the party are underpowered.

So...

Yeah, that boss is getting like 10HD and a Disjunction primed.

 

[MNblockhead]

Another problem with milestone leveling is, that you can't outpace the DM. When the DM has a CR 12 Monster as the BBEG for the End fight, he will make sure, that you are level 12 (simplification, we all now a 12th level party will wipe the floor with one CR 12 creature).
With an XP system it is possible to outlevel the Endboss. Reach level 13 or 14 in a campaign that was supposed to go to 12.
With Milestones that is not possible.

How is this a problem? Seems like a good argument FOR milestone leveling in a story/plot-focused game.

 

[M_Natas]

How is this a problem? Seems like a good argument FOR milestone leveling in a story/plot-focused game.

It is a problem because the players don't have a choice? They can't decide that they need more Power to beat it, that they wanna do some more side quests to be better prepared and get stronger to increase their chances, if those side quests don't give XP = Level Ups.
Like in all the newer WotC published adventures, all characters who play trough it will be exactly the same level at the end, because every chapter gives a level.
It takes away a little player agency.

 

[pemerton]

It is a problem because the players don't have a choice? They can't decide that they need more Power to beat it, that they wanna do some more side quests to be better prepared and get stronger to increase their chances, if those side quests don't give XP = Level Ups.

<snip>

It takes away a little player agency.

Why should players get to choose how mechanically powerful their characters are, vis-a-vis the obstacle the GM frames them into?

I mean, there are approaches to RPGing that half-answer the question, but they also give the players significant authority to do their own framing. (I'm thinking mostly of Gygaxian dungeon-crawling, where the players get to choose both (i) which goals to pursue to earn XP, and (ii) which rooms/levels to tackle - ie they get to do a lot of their own framing.)

 

[M_Natas]

Why should players get to choose how mechanically powerful their characters are, vis-a-vis the obstacle the GM frames them into?

I mean, there are approaches to RPGing that half-answer the question, but they also give the players significant authority to do their own framing. (I'm thinking mostly of Gygaxian dungeon-crawling, where the players get to choose both (i) which goals to pursue to earn XP, and (ii) which rooms/levels to tackle - ie they get to do a lot of their own framing.)

Because mechanical player agency is important, too?
The difference between an XP and a milestone system is, that by default in an XP system the players have control over the Level advancement, they have choices, they can do everythingthat gives XP to get a new level. In a milestone system they have no control, no choices. You have to do exactly this one (or maybe two) things to get a Level.


By design Milestone is limiting player choice and agency while XP is expanding player choice and agency.

Like ... let's say pokemon. In every Pokemon Game I have full control over how much power my pokemon have by deciding how much I train them. The story is very railroady in Pokemon, but I have freedom of choice over the strength of my team. If you would put Milestones onto pokemon, like you get 10 levels for every arena you beat, Pokemon would suck, because now you have no story agency and no mechanical agency anymore.