Dragonlance Dragonlance Philosophy thread

[Scribe]

Paladine is Good. The Kingpriest was (again at the final moment) not Good. The Cataclysm, was Old Testament.

On the other hand it is clear and unambiguous that Paladine claimed that the Kingpriest was good. The question is why Paladine, chief god of Good claimed that the Kingpriest was good.

I read that as 'he was at one point, a good man'. Clearly he would have been, before an Alignment shift due to his over reach and zealous persecution. Thats the thing, I dont think the text, limited as it is, actually states that Paladine supported the Kingpriest, in fact we know he didnt, he withdrew his power.

If Paladine agreed, up to the very end, that the Kingpriest was 'Good', he would not have withdrawn his power.

 

[Xamnam]

I think that you got it right when you said that stat block is weird... but yes, reread teh thread, people think he was good and paladine was good and that the cataclysm was good.

To be clear, I don't think the cataclysm is good. I think that the cataclysm can be the action of Good (in Krynn) gods without being making them paradoxical, or calling it a problem that should be fixed.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Paladine is Good. The Kingpriest was (again at the final moment) not Good. The Cataclysm, was Old Testament.



I read that as 'he was at one point, a good man'. Clearly he would have been, before an Alignment shift due to his over reach and zealous persecution. Thats the thing, I dont think the text, limited as it is, actually states that Paladine supported the Kingpriest, in fact we know he didnt, he withdrew his power.

If Paladine agreed, up to the very end, that the Kingpriest was 'Good', he would not have withdrawn his power.

"So this is the end," Tanis said. "Good has triumphed. "good? Triumph? "Fizban Repeated, turning to stare at the half-elf shrewdly. " Not so, half elvin. The balance is restored. The evil dragons will not be banished. They remain here, as do the good dragons. Once again the pendulum swings freely. " "all the suffering, just for that?" Laurana asked, coming to stand beside Tanis. "Why shouldn't good win, drive the darkness away forever? " Young lady? " Fizban scolded, shaking a bony finger at her. "There was a time when good held sway. Do you know when that was? Right before the cataclysm!" "Yes" he continued seeing their astonishment " the king priest of Istar was a good man. Does that surprise you? It shouldn't, because both of you have seen what goodness like that can do. You've seen it in the elves, the ancient embodiment of good! It breeds intolerance, rigidity, a belief that because I am right, those who don't believe as I do are wrong."

Quoted earlier in the thread. (thanks @RuinousPowers )

 

[Xamnam]

The question is why Paladine, chief god of Good claimed that the Kingpriest was good. And what implications it has for the setting that the chief God of Good claimed that the Kingpriest was Good - especially when it is confirmed by the statblock and Good has (or had) serious supernatural impacts and was measurable.

See, that's exactly why I find it interesting, and wouldn't want it changed. A setting with different cosmological defaults can be a very interesting space to examine morality in this context, divorced from how we would typically approach it.

 

[Neonchameleon]

See, that's exactly why I find it interesting, and wouldn't want it changed. A setting with different cosmological defaults can be a very interesting space to examine morality in this context, divorced from how we would typically approach it.

Oh, I 100% agree here. I just want it to be explicitly acknowledged that this is what is happening. That (a) Paladine is far better than Takhsis and that (b) Good, in the Dragonlance setting doesn't start with or even really have room for compassion and empathy and is not what many people in the real world would consider good.

 

[Vaalingrade]

My values.

Intolerance of other people's beliefs is bad.

Okay. Let's play this game.

How dare you be intolerant of my intolerance of mass murder then.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Okay. Let's play this game.

How dare you be intolerant of my intolerance of mass murder then.

I'm perfectly happy for you to believe what you like about mass murder. I'm not a fan of mass murder - a direct product of intolerance - either.

I'm not happy for you to be intolerant of people whose religion teaches them otherwise. But other people have different beliefs to me. I accept that.

 

[Scribe]

"So this is the end," Tanis said. "Good has triumphed. "good? Triumph? "Fizban Repeated, turning to stare at the half-elf shrewdly. " Not so, half elvin. The balance is restored. The evil dragons will not be banished. They remain here, as do the good dragons. Once again the pendulum swings freely. " "all the suffering, just for that?" Laurana asked, coming to stand beside Tanis. "Why shouldn't good win, drive the darkness away forever? " Young lady? " Fizban scolded, shaking a bony finger at her. "There was a time when good held sway. Do you know when that was? Right before the cataclysm!" "Yes" he continued seeing their astonishment " the king priest of Istar was a good man. Does that surprise you? It shouldn't, because both of you have seen what goodness like that can do. You've seen it in the elves, the ancient embodiment of good! It breeds intolerance, rigidity, a belief that because I am right, those who don't believe as I do are wrong."

Quoted earlier in the thread. (thanks @RuinousPowers )

Yes, and have a feeling we are reading it differently. I have a call in a few min lets see if I can get this to 'paper'.

Tanis and Laurana are Good. They are viewing the setting and world from a view of personal, mortal, Good. This is still Good.

Fizban (Paladine) corrects Tanis immedietly, that Evil is not banished, both remain, and balance is restored and able to swing freely. This plays right into the importance within Mormon doctrine of "Free Will" and why we come to Earth, and why Evil exists on earth, when we have a loving God above us (just for those who dont know that).

Now heres the point where things diverge.

"Why shouldn't good win, drive the darkness away forever?"

Fizban immediately corrrects, and I believe inadvertently perhaps, this is the message of the setting.

"It shouldn't, because both of you have seen what goodness like that can do. You've seen it in the elves, the ancient embodiment of good! It breeds intolerance, rigidity, a belief that because I am right, those who don't believe as I do are wrong."

 

[GMforPowergamers]

To be clear, I don't think the cataclysm is good. I think that the cataclysm can be the action of Good (in Krynn) gods without being making them paradoxical, or calling it a problem that should be fixed.

How can it not be good AND something good god should do?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

See, that's exactly why I find it interesting, and wouldn't want it changed. A setting with different cosmological defaults can be a very interesting space to examine morality in this context, divorced from how we would typically approach it.

the 'fix' for this is to write up an exception.. "Good on Krynn isn't the same as good in the default PHB, and here is how it is diffrent"