Dragonlance Dragonlance Philosophy thread

[billd91]

How can it not be good AND something good god should do?

See, there's that good has to be perfect thing again.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It breeds intolerance, rigidity, a belief that because I am right, those who don't believe as I do are wrong."

I'll drink to that!

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yes, and have a feeling we are reading it differently. I have a call in a few min lets see if I can get this to 'paper'.

Tanis and Laurana are Good. They are viewing the setting and world from a view of personal, mortal, Good. This is still Good.

Fizban (Paladine) corrects Tanis immedietly, that Evil is not banished, both remain, and balance is restored and able to swing freely. This plays right into the importance within Mormon doctrine of "Free Will" and why we come to Earth, and why Evil exists on earth, when we have a loving God above us (just for those who dont know that).

Now heres the point where things diverge.

"Why shouldn't good win, drive the darkness away forever?"

Fizban immediately corrrects, and I believe inadvertently perhaps, this is the message of the setting.

"It shouldn't, because both of you have seen what goodness like that can do. You've seen it in the elves, the ancient embodiment of good! It breeds intolerance, rigidity, a belief that because I am right, those who don't believe as I do are wrong."

Again this isn't goodness Fizban is advocating as Good. He didn't say the Kingpriest started out as evil and even if it's not clear that he's not saying the Kingpriest was good he's being clear that it was goodness that was the problem. And he called Elves the embodiment of good. He's saying that what he considers good inevitably leads to evil. He's doing good wrong.

Meanwhile there are perfectly good other explanations of evil. I'm partial to a Jewish midrash where God takes away all evil from the world for a day at request - and no work gets done and people don't have even the desire to feed themselves. Oddly enough this also leads to balance being good, but it doesn't lead to nonsense about "the balance between good and evil".

See, there's that good has to be perfect thing again.

There's a difference between being something and being an embodiment of something. Paladine's domains include Good. If Paladine was shown as being a mortal writ large rather than chief of Good that would be a different story.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This plays right into the importance within Mormon doctrine of "Free Will" and why we come to Earth, and why Evil exists on earth, when we have a loving God above us (just for those who dont know that).

alright I have tried not to go theological real world, but this is a gross simplification of the Mormon beliefs. It would be akin to me saying "Christens believe god came to earth, and Jewish people do not" while not really false per say, it also is overly simplified. This is why I don't want to talk about it because all my years of theology classes are going to drive me nuts with bare bones selective readings of scriptures.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Again this isn't goodness Fizban is advocating as Good.

It's the goodness of anyone who sincerely believes they are a good person.

Nothing more misguided and dangerous than that.

 

[Xamnam]

the 'fix' for this is to write up an exception.. "Good on Krynn isn't the same as good in the default PHB, and here is how it is diffrent"

The problem is that defining what 'Good' means is that it A) robs the setting of asking that question to the reader/player and letting them come up with their own answer, and B) nigh impossible to fully encapsulate in a meaningful way. We already fight about alignment in realms much closer to our own where it should theoretically be less contentious.

 

[Scribe]

alright I have tried not to go theological real world, but this is a gross simplification of the Mormon beliefs.

Yes, it's not a theology or seminary class.

However, I see too many parallels to ignore.

We don't have to agree.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

All Christians believe different things. That's why I stopped being a Baptist and don't believe in the objective reality and good and evil. As I got to know what people really believed, rather than what they said to conform to group norms, it became apparent that even within a small church everyone had different beliefs. If there was any underlying reality behind those beliefs, I would expect to see some kind of convergence, but all I saw was divergence. Conclusion: no underlying reality exists.

Those people remain family and friends though. I still respect their beliefs, even if I don't share them.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

See, there's that good has to be perfect thing again.

no it isn't... good can make mistakes, good can have to compromise, never did I say good CAN'T make any mistakes... genocide is a pretty big oppsie though... throwing the world into post apocalyptic points of light that are weaker against evil and almost leads to evil taking over is maybe the biggest mistake ever.

this isn't "Hey the goblin killed my best friend then surrendered but I killed him in anger then felt real bad about it and want to atone"
this is "The mayor is secretly an evil necromancer and has the town fooled, so I killed 90% of the town broke the kingdom up and then left... when I came back I wasn't remorseful but assured everyone that necromancer was a good guy but I had to kill him so I had to kill all those people too"

Lex Luther can act the hero (and does in some of my favirote stories) to quote the tick "You can't blow up earth, that's where I keep my stuff" really sums up why he helps most times... same with Dr Doom. but I am not calling either a good person.
If Dr richards (who I question daily if he is good person anyway) blew up all of latviria to stop doom I think we would all agree that is WAY out of bounds of a hero.
If Clark flew into space grabed a small meter (say about the size of a house or two) and chucked it at lex corp tower... killing hundreds of thousands... I think we would say that is out of bounds for a hero.

HECK antiheroes don't pull those stunts often...

so no Good gods don't have to be perfect, but they also can't commit war crimes and not care.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The problem is that defining what 'Good' means is that it A) robs the setting of asking that question to the reader/player and letting them come up with their own answer, and B) nigh impossible to fully encapsulate in a meaningful way. We already fight about alignment in realms much closer to our own where it should theoretically be less contentious.

so then just don't lable them good... heck just say "They are called the good gods on krynn even though there alignments are all 'unaligned' and the concept of good and evil is more complex then an average game world" there you go adds 30 words before the god entries, but then changes 12 gods from having 2 word alignments to 1 word so saves you 12 words... net cost 18 words