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WotC Hasbro Bets Big on D&D

During today's 'Hasbro Fireside Chat', Hasbro's Chris Cocks, chief executive officer, and Cynthia Williams, president of Wizards of the Coast and Digital Gaming mentioned D&D, and about betting big on its name. This was in addition to the Magic: The Gathering discussion they held on the same call. The following are rough notes on what they said. D&D Beyond Leaning heavily on D&D Beyond 13...

During today's 'Hasbro Fireside Chat', Hasbro's Chris Cocks, chief executive officer, and Cynthia Williams, president of Wizards of the Coast and Digital Gaming mentioned D&D, and about betting big on its name. This was in addition to the Magic: The Gathering discussion they held on the same call.

Hasbro.jpg


The following are rough notes on what they said.

D&D Beyond
  • Leaning heavily on D&D Beyond
  • 13 million registered users
  • Give them more ways to express their fandom
  • Hired 350 people last year
  • Low attrition
What’s next for D&D
  • Never been more popular
  • Brand under-monetized
  • Excited about D&D Beyond possibilities
  • Empower accessibility and development of the user base.
  • Data driven insight
  • Window into how players are playing
  • Companion app on their phone
  • Start future monetization starting with D&D Beyond
  • DMs are 20% of the audience but lions share of purchases
  • Digital game recurrent spending for post sale revenue.
  • Speed of digital can expand, yearly book model to include current digital style models.
  • Reach highly engaged multigenerational fans.
  • Dungeons and Dragons has recognition, 10 out of 10
  • Cultural phenomenon right now.
  • DND strategy is a broad four quadrant strategy
  • Like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings or Marvel
  • New books and accessories, licensed game stuff, and D&D Beyond
  • Huge hopes for D&D
What is success for the D&D Movie
  • First big light up oppourtunity for 4th quadrant
  • Significant marketing
  • They think it’ll have significant box office
  • It has second most viewed trailer at Paramount, only eclipsed by Transformers
  • Will be licensed video games, some on movies
  • Then follow up other media, TV, other movies, etc.
  • Bullish on D&D.
 

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Oofta

Legend
@Oofta, dammit, stop saying things that make perfect sense and I keep agreeing with. It makes me very uncomfortable. :D

But, yeah, it's pretty clear that a lot of people who are predicting doom and gloom for the hobby because of what video games do have not spent much, if any, time actually playing online with the existing tools.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. ;)

Hmm ... did I just call one of use a broken clock? :unsure:
 

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Hussar

Legend
Except no one can just take your PS5 away from you with notice and nothing you can do about it.

True. And there is no indication that the modules I bought for Fantasy Grounds are going anywhere.

Now if the day after the vtt releases, my FG material suddenly stops working then I will be right there behind you with torches and pitchforks. Yuppers.

But considering I can still download the free web supplements on Paizo for 3e Dungeon modules, I’m thinking that that might not be a big issue.
 


But, yeah, it's pretty clear that a lot of people who are predicting doom and gloom for the hobby because of what video games do have not spent much, if any, time actually playing online with the existing tools.
Yup. Them's the breaks.

I don't think it's doom and gloom; as you say it's an amplification of the current state of things. Wotc is already a quasi-monopoly in the ttrpg space, and they were well positioned to extend that monopoly. A lot of 3p content is already routed through the DMs guild, where they take a 50% cut and ownership, and again they can maintain or extend their position there too in various ways. We already live in a world where media comes to us as a temporary subscription form, and can be removed or modified by the actual owner (netflix, spotify, steam, etc) or be subject to disappearance if the owner goes under (I guess I shouldn't feel bad for fantasy ground owners if/when that happens). Dnd is already a lifestyle brand, 1dnd will just lean into that.
 

So ... it's bad for MMOs so it's bad for a VTT? The VTT is not D&D. I see no reason why the VTT side of things would harm the publishing side or affect it in any significant way.
I think you do see reasons as to how it could, though.

The issue is really whether it necessarily will.

Companies typically follow the path of least resistance, unless there's strong evidence to suggest a different path will pay off in at least the mid-term.

The point with GTAV is one that does have some relevance, in that a company know for high-quality single-player games, and which had elaborately planned expansions for one of those games, decided to dump all of that in favour of simply applying all efforts to extracting the maximum possible amount of money from GTAO.

Now what's interesting here is this isn't just an MMO. GTAO wasn't particularly planned as being a huge thing. I mean, it was notionally pretty cool, but the previous online modes for GTA games hadn't done that well, and it seems like from the messaging around it, it was expected that it would do okay, but not stunningly.

However it was extremely successful, and this caused a massive strategy change at Rockstar Games, where they pivoted from making any more single-player content (despite apparently being far enough along in production to be recording voice actors) to purely making content directed that that GTAO audience, who were spending insane amounts on microtransactions.

Now you raise a valid point, so let's address it:
They could f*** up the VTT side I suppose, but it's not like Crawford is suddenly going to be assigned to the art department.
This is totally valid. The core designers of D&D are not going to end up repurposed making minis for the VTT or something! That's undeniably right.

But that doesn't mean the bulk of resources that WotC is directing at D&D could not or would not shift, and that the nature of products might not shift distinctly to favour the VTT.

This could be in simple ways - if the VTT has difficulty handling verticality, as many do, it might be that WotC simply stops using verticality in their adventures. Equally if the VTT isn't adaptable to things like ship or car combat, or other alternate rules structures, it may be that WotC adventures stop using those. Some people might well even consider that a win! It's certainly not a purely bad thing!

But it's influence.

And that's towards the lower end of influence.

If the VTT is a huge profit centre, then WotC is going to invest in it more, and that may or may not mean money being shifted away from D&D products we're more used to. Whatever makes money, they're going to go with that.

One thing I could easily see is moving away from books to small "bites" of rules, which could be sold for a relatively higher profit margin (and then a year, or two or three later, probably collected as books - they don't need to have a huge run or anything). So, let say they decided to put out 3 new subclasses and 2 species as a little block, that you could buy for $19.99 on DDBVTT only, then a couple of months later we get 2 more species, 10 spells, and 20 magic items for $14.99 on DDBVTT, then some new online-friendly, very "clickable" crafting rules which are designed for online so would be clunky-as-heck in analogue format, for another $19.99 and so on, and this gradually adds up. And the rules they're adding are designed to integrate well with the DDBVTT, not with analogue book-based play, other VTTs (if they're even still supporting those), or anything else. Maybe after 1.5 years we get an overpriced book collecting this stuff (and more online stuff - that's like maybe 6 months or so's worth there), with the dubious excuse that it can't be much cheaper than what people have paid already online for this.

The ideal situation for anyone who likes tabletop or VTT diversity is that WotC kind of messes all this stuff up, and the good news is, they've as we saying the UK "got form" - i.e. have a history of messing up digital horribly.

But if they find they can make literally 3x as much money per person involved with digital stuff say, then they're not going to worry too much about accidentally losing some of the more analogue people in the rush there. And 3x as much might be a low-end estimate, given what they've said re: D&D being "under-monetized".


As an aside, I think it's incredibly unlikely WotC will attempt to in any way prevent Fantasy Grounds, Roll 20 etc. from using 5E stuff. It seems very unlikely their contracts would allow them to do that without breach on the part of those companies.

But when WotC stops making 5E and starts making 1D&D, they have a valid break point where they could simply stop licencing new stuff to those companies. There'll be crude workarounds - some 3PP will put out a rules book that essentially implements all the major 5E to 1D&D rules changes (including to classes/spells) because rules can't copyright'd, just their expression, and work with Fantasy Grounds etc. to get that implemented and functioning, but it'll be hacky stuff and require niche knowledge for people to deal with it.
 

D&D as a brand is definitely under-monatized. I’ve only bought one product that WOC would have seen a dime from in the last two years and that was the roll20 version Monsters of the Multiverse. So they got whatever proportion of £30 they get from that transaction… despite that I usually play 6-7 sessions of D&D a month on average.

I spend lots of money on D&D, miniatures, patreons for battlemaps, 3pp adventures, roll20 tokens, roll20 subscription. Probably at least £50 per month, oftentimes much more (Damn you Kingmaker)… it’s just that WOC doesn’t see any of it. They just either don’t offer the things I want at all, or more likely don’t offer them at a good enough quality/value for money. (Adventures, minis, maps etc)

I agree that the brand is under-monatized - I’m not sure loading extra charges into D&D beyond will be enough to fix the issue though. If they want to make more money from individual users - rather than just increase the user base - then they need to start producing the products people are spending their money on elsewhere better than the competition does.
The Under monetized refers to merch, tv, games and movies. Not the game itself.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I think you do see reasons as to how it could, though.

The issue is really whether it necessarily will.

Companies typically follow the path of least resistance, unless there's strong evidence to suggest a different path will pay off in at least the mid-term.

The point with GTAV is one that does have some relevance, in that a company know for high-quality single-player games, and which had elaborately planned expansions for one of those games, decided to dump all of that in favour of simply applying all efforts to extracting the maximum possible amount of money from GTAO.

Now what's interesting here is this isn't just an MMO. GTAO wasn't particularly planned as being a huge thing. I mean, it was notionally pretty cool, but the previous online modes for GTA games hadn't done that well, and it seems like from the messaging around it, it was expected that it would do okay, but not stunningly.

However it was extremely successful, and this caused a massive strategy change at Rockstar Games, where they pivoted from making any more single-player content (despite apparently being far enough along in production to be recording voice actors) to purely making content directed that that GTAO audience, who were spending insane amounts on microtransactions.

Now you raise a valid point, so let's address it:

This is totally valid. The core designers of D&D are not going to end up repurposed making minis for the VTT or something! That's undeniably right.

But that doesn't mean the bulk of resources that WotC is directing at D&D could not or would not shift, and that the nature of products might not shift distinctly to favour the VTT.

This could be in simple ways - if the VTT has difficulty handling verticality, as many do, it might be that WotC simply stops using verticality in their adventures. Equally if the VTT isn't adaptable to things like ship or car combat, or other alternate rules structures, it may be that WotC adventures stop using those. Some people might well even consider that a win! It's certainly not a purely bad thing!

But it's influence.

And that's towards the lower end of influence.

If the VTT is a huge profit centre, then WotC is going to invest in it more, and that may or may not mean money being shifted away from D&D products we're more used to. Whatever makes money, they're going to go with that.

One thing I could easily see is moving away from books to small "bites" of rules, which could be sold for a relatively higher profit margin (and then a year, or two or three later, probably collected as books - they don't need to have a huge run or anything). So, let say they decided to put out 3 new subclasses and 2 species as a little block, that you could buy for $19.99 on DDBVTT only, then a couple of months later we get 2 more species, 10 spells, and 20 magic items for $14.99 on DDBVTT, then some new online-friendly, very "clickable" crafting rules which are designed for online so would be clunky-as-heck in analogue format, for another $19.99 and so on, and this gradually adds up. And the rules they're adding are designed to integrate well with the DDBVTT, not with analogue book-based play, other VTTs (if they're even still supporting those), or anything else. Maybe after 1.5 years we get an overpriced book collecting this stuff (and more online stuff - that's like maybe 6 months or so's worth there), with the dubious excuse that it can't be much cheaper than what people have paid already online for this.

The ideal situation for anyone who likes tabletop or VTT diversity is that WotC kind of messes all this stuff up, and the good news is, they've as we saying the UK "got form" - i.e. have a history of messing up digital horribly.

But if they find they can make literally 3x as much money per person involved with digital stuff say, then they're not going to worry too much about accidentally losing some of the more analogue people in the rush there. And 3x as much might be a low-end estimate, given what they've said re: D&D being "under-monetized".

GTAO was organic though and I never felt ripped off with just the base game which I thought was great.

It wasn't designed from the ground up to milk the consumers they delivered a quality product that took off.
As I understand it sine of the dlc is game expansion.

Should probably try it again.
 

GTAO was organic though and I never felt ripped off with just the base game which I thought was great.

It wasn't designed from the ground up to milk the consumers they delivered a quality product that took off.
As I understand it sine of the dlc is game expansion.

Should probably try it again.
Organic isn't the right word.

Emergent, maybe.

GTAO was always basically designed to rip people off - it's always had somewhat predatory monetization undercut only by how easy it was to hack initially. But the designers thought a small number of people would delight in ripping themselves off, and instead, they found a huge number did.

But that's largely beside the point. GTAO surprise success caused Rockstar to completely change the core strategy of their company for that game. To refocus from single-player to multiplayer cash-extraction.

What GTAO didn't do was retroactively make GTAV a bad game of course. But it did mean that, unlike GTAIV, V didn't get any DLC, let alone a whole bunch of pretty cool stuff.

The question here is, could the massive success of a DDBVTT cause WotC to focus primarily on extracting cash from people using the VTT? And I think it's obviously possible. It won't necessarily be the case, but it's a valid concern, and it's one of the more plausible scenarios. I would say less plausible in the short-term than the VTT merely being part of the cash flow, but let's see where we are in 2029 if Skynet hasn't killed us all.
 

The Under monetized refers to merch, tv, games and movies. Not the game itself.
Where are you getting that from? The reference to monetization in the fireside chat was about creating post-sale "recurrent spending," especially for the 80% of people who are players and not DMs One part of that is all the things you mention, but another part is getting players to invest in the product on a recurrent basis, e.g. a subscription service
 


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