D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

[Vaalingrade]

Well, yeah, nothing makes your wizard look awesome than someone else's non-caster being a sidekick. Moreover, D&D has actively cultivated this mentality, which is why it's more common in older players who gripe about powerful martials being too anime. Anyone who wanted a better caster/.non-caster balance played other systems. Gygax voiced that the "serious" players graduated to magic-users, so them being a cruddy training wheels class was intended. The triumph of the nerd over the jock and caster supremacy were baked in.

People act like I'm making it up when I talk about how much designers and veteran players disrespect new players, but it was there from the start, baked into the culture, just like the jackhole DM.

 

[ECMO3]

This issue is individual spells of an individual wizard but the lack of restrictions. Because the wizard with

1. Alibaba's Awesome Abjuration
2. Calamitus's Crazy Conjuration
3. Dyno's Powerful Divination
4. Egg's Great Enchantment
5. Eg's Excellent Evocation
6. Illya's Sick Illusion
7. Sandro's Broken Necromancy
8. Tucker's Hot Transmutation

is good at all 8 schools. "But those spells don't exist."

Stop beating around the bush, I want you to provide an example build of a 1st level wizard that is good at all 8 schools of magic .... using real published spells and Wizard class abilities (and nothing else).

 

[ECMO3]

I would lock some wizard spells behind school specialization,


The issue again is that all but 2 tools could be potentially in the toolbox with no restrictions.

Not with just class feastures they can't. That is just patently false. They are limited to 2 spells per wizard level plus 4 more 1st level spells they get at first level.

That is a hard limit on what tools they have based on what is afforded by the Wizard class.

To compare to a toolbox - they can have a saw or a hammer or a wrench or a screwdriver but they can't have all 4 based on what is provided by the class, which ensures their toolbox will never be very full.

 

[ECMO3]

Second flaw-The Big One: The game world does not scale up. This has been a problem starting in 3E. Up to 5th level it's just a "normal rocky cliffside", after 5th level you MIGHT find a published "more challenging" cliffside, but likely not. And so THAT is the huge problem. At like 10th level the DM is like "there is a cliff" and the player of the wizard just half asleep says "whatever, zip, my wizard flies to the top". Why? Because it's just a rocky cliff.

This is a strawman for several reasons.

To start with, it assumes the Wizard both has Fly in her book and has it prepared. I have played many Wizards but only 2 total even had fly in their book. I am playing one of them right now and she does not even have it prepared (she has Summon Shadowspawn, Fear and Counterspell prepared instead).

Second a Wizard's flight in many ways is inferior; it is concentration which means just a single hidden archer could make her plummet to her death with a bad con save. Now she could have feather fall prepared too as a failsafe, but now she has two spells in her book and prepared to let her fly to the top of the cliff.

Finally, a 3rd level slot is a high price to play to accomplish this when it is available on numerous races at 1st level and available to all Druids without using a slot by 8th (and some Druids earlier). Further unlike a Wizard's Fly spell these methods are a lot safer with only a small risk of plummeting.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Stop beating around the bush, I want to provide an example build of a 1st level wizard that is good at all 8 schools of magic .... using real published spells and Wizard class abilities (and nothing else).

Then provide it.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

To start with, it assumes the Wizard both has Fly in her book and has it prepared. I have played many Wizards but only 2 total even had fly in their book. I am playing one of them right now and she does not even have it prepared (she has Summon Shadowspawn, Fear and Counterspell prepared instead).

Just because you didn't, doesn't mean that nobody else doesn't.

And let's be honest: What wizard doesn't get a spell that basically trivializes any terrain based challenge? Either from getting it by leveling up or by buying/finding a scroll and copying that into their spellbook?

Second a Wizard's flight in many ways is inferior; it is concentration which means just a single hidden archer could make her plummet to her death with a bad con save. Now she could have feather fall prepared too as a failsafe, but now she has two spells in her book and prepared to let her fly to the top of the cliff.

Yeah, there's always an archer parking themselves around every cliff/gorge that exists just to shoot anybody who casts Fly down.

I wonder how much that job pays.

Finally, a 3rd level slot is a high price to play to accomplish this when it is available on numerous races at 1st level and available to all Druids without using a slot by 8th (and some Druids earlier). Further unlike a Wizard's Fly spell these methods are a lot safer with only a small risk of plummeting.

And then the Druid gets shot by the same archer that's hiding near the cliff. Not only that, but because the bird they're turning into probably doesn't have a lot of health, they are now guaranteed to be plummeting to their death, rather than having to make an easy save that any spellcaster worth their salt is gonna have things to help them pass that save, like high Constitution, Proficiency in Constitution saves from Resilient, and/or just straight up advantage on concentration saves from War Caster.

And on choosing a race that gets a flying speed, you must not be aware of the occasional kerfuffles that happen whenever a player chooses to be an Aaracokra, the only race that gets a flight speed at 1st level (that I'm aware of, at least). And when it comes to the other races that can get a flight speed, tell me the average level that they get that flight speed, because I can guarantee you it's at or around the same level that spellcasters can start casting Fly.

 

[soviet]

This is a too common response: if you scale up the game at all it specificity targets the martials and they become useless. And SURE you COULD do that......but you could also not do it.

The whole cliff area is in an anti magic field, the martials just SHRUG and climb up the cliff. The cliffs are full of archer bushes...well, the martials just fight them. Same with the flying foes. There are thousands of ways to scale up a world that does not directly attack the martials.

To be honest I'm not sure I'm too keen on my fighter climbing up this cliff either. All these archer bushes and flying enemies sound like great opportunities to fail a climb check and fall off. I have no real advantage over a caster in that situation other than probably a higher Athletics check and more HP. The casters can choose to fly or climb depending on the circumstances; I can only climb or perhaps be carried.

Though a couple rules do work out great. One I use in my game is: You declare whatever thing you want to do and make an attack roll against your opponent. If you get a hit, the opponent has the choice to either let the maneuver happen, or take the regular damage of the attack per normal rules. And this simple rule works out amazingly. It lets martials attempt to do nearly anything.

But surely if the opponent has the choice, they will always just take the damage unless the effect of the manoeuvre would be less relevant than the damage (or they are on very low HP)? So this rule either does nothing or actively helps the opponent more than the attacker?

 

[Minigiant]

Not with just class feastures they can't. That is just patently false. They are limited to 2 spells per wizard level plus 4 more 1st level spells they get at first level.

2 spells per level pus 4 more 1st level spells is enough to get access to most of the important effects in the game.

It doesn't grant the ability to have to the strongest version of every effect at once without help but you can get a pretty full library.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

2 spells per level pus 4 more 1st level spells is enough to get access to most of the important effects in the game.

It doesn't grant the ability to have to the strongest version of every effect at once without help but you can get a pretty full library.

and also you can copy from scrolls and other spellbooks.

This isn't even really an optional rule either. It's in a sidebar in the PHB under the Wizard and right next to the section about preparing and casting spells.

And I will say, as much as I rag on Wizards for being like, the de-facto best class in the game, if I'm DMing for one I'm not gonna take this whole thing away from them, either directly (Just saying "No you can't copy stuff into your spellbook") or indirectly (Not putting in scrolls/spellbooks as treasures or stuff you can buy in shops) because that's a heavy handed way of "fixing" the Wizard and it's also lame.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

This is a too common response: if you scale up the game at all it specificity targets the martials and they become useless. And SURE you COULD do that......but you could also not do it.

The whole cliff area is in an anti magic field, the martials just SHRUG and climb up the cliff. The cliffs are full of archer bushes...well, the martials just fight them. Same with the flying foes. There are thousands of ways to scale up a world that does not directly attack the martials.

The wizard can fight the bush too. So can the bard, paladin, etc. "Fighting" is something everyone in 5E does basically equally well, to the system's detriment.

Also, get out of here with this "anti-magic field" nonsense. I've seen them a grand total of ZERO times in published 5E adventures, and maybe a handful in pre 5E (most of them being Challenge of Champions adventures which are specifically about disabling the class and relying entirely on player puzzle solving). The caster apologists trot this out like they're rolling a d6 at the start of every encounter and on a 1 its "whoops, wandering anti-magic field in effect".

This is the common answer: 10,000 more pages of rules.

Though a couple rules do work out great. One I use in my game is: You declare whatever thing you want to do and make an attack roll against your opponent. If you get a hit, the opponent has the choice to either let the maneuver happen, or take the regular damage of the attack per normal rules. And this simple rule works out amazingly. It lets martials attempt to do nearly anything.

"Lol just do whatever" isn't the great rule system you guys seem to think it is. If I wanted a system based almost entirely on DM fiat, I would play one of the many 3 page systems out there. Why is it good for casters to monopolize 1/2 the players handbook with codified rules, but too much to ask for half that in feats of martial prowess and mythic skill usage?