D&D (2024) How much would you spend on monthly subscriptions for dnd?

[Morrus]

Since me and my table have quit 5e and won't play D&D in the foreseeable future, I'm not gonna spend a cent on it.

I suppose not. Why would you spend money on a game you have quit? I'm mildly confused. I'm also not spending money on antique chinese tea sets or discarded NASA rocket parts.

I guess the most interetsing question is why you are posting in a thread about a game you don't play and have no intention of playing? That sounds like really hard work. The number of things you don't intent to do surely outweighs the number of things you intend to do. Maybe post about the latter?

But otherwise, please tell us about your thoughts on pottery, skydiving, and deep-sea diving.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

I suppose not. Why would you spend money on a game you have quit? I'm mildly confused. I'm also not spending money on antique chinese tea sets or discarded NASA rocket parts.

I guess the most interetsing question is why you are posting in a thread about a game you don't play and have no intention of playing? That sounds like really hard work. The number of things you don't intent to do surely outweighs the number of things you intend to do. Maybe post about the latter?

But otherwise, please tell us about your thoughts on pottery, skydiving, and deep-sea diving.

Shure. Despite your snarky and sarcastic tone I will enlighten you.

Regarding pottery it has an interesting history, from purely functional containers, via vessels with religious and sociocultural connotations, to todays hypercommercialized products. But besides being a product, pottery has since the arts and craft movement in the late 19th century also been a medium for self expression with a therapeutic function for the bourgeois. And precisely that dualism is why pottery - far removed from antique greek urns - is still interesting today.

Skydiving is largely a mystery to me, not the least because I get vertigo by standing on a kitchen table. The most interesting aspect of it though is that it's part of the cult of physical kicks, an expression of the hunt for meaning in late modernity's commodification of the self. If you are interested I can tell you more about my thoughts about that.

Deep-sea diving is another expression of the above, but in another direction, towards a more spiritual direction. On the other hand, exploring the deep blue also has both scientific meaning and connotations of capitalism. In these days of over-exploitation of the earth the deep sea still is both virgin grounds for exploration and a sense of mystery, and maybe the last area to rape for material gain. It's complicated.

If you think that I have written something wrong in a thread, a friendly reminder goes a long way, to keep up the tone I guess you want in your forum. Or maybe the snarky reply should be interpreted as an example you want us to follow?

 

[Remathilis]

That's what I keep wondering. Folks seem very annoyed with Hasbro/WotC, but I can't for the life of me identify anything they've done that seems egregious. Their books have always been well priced. DnDBeyond is incredibly cheap, and the micro-transactions on it actually save you money by letting you choose to buy part of a book instead of the whole thing (plus, if you change you mind later and do want the rest of it, they discount what you already paid).

All the expensive stuff in the hobby is sold by third parties like Wizkids, Dwarven Forge, Beadle&Grimm, etc.

I don't understand what is driving the anger towards WotC. They've always been straight shooters, in my experience. They've got a good reputation with their staff, ex-staff, and business partners. They've done much better by their creatives than TSR ever did, that's for sure!

Maybe that will change, but it doesn't seem fair to judge them for stuff that might or might not happen. Given their history, I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm pretty sure it stems from the Magic: The Gathering side of WotC, where the monetization of cards (both on the primay and secondary market) has made play difficult for all but the most dedicated whales. It's not just $1000 randomized proxy cards either; it's the constant churn of multiple sets (often one per month), supplemental items, card bans and meta-shakeups, and the fact that even Arena, their "free to play" MTG online system, is heavily weighted toward pay-to-win rather than slowly collecting into a viable deck. People fear that a level of monetization equal to that could be coming to D&D.

Now, truth be told, I don't think they can MTG-ize D&D. They did the splat-of-the-month-club style of content release and it failed. D&D Beyond currently is monetized about as far as you can take table-top D&D. (Digital books, subscription rewards, virtual dice and pretty background "sheets") They might attempt to push the VTT (with purchasing minis, modules, terrain, etc.) but again, there are plenty of alternatives to that, ranging from Foundry to Roll20 to your kitchen table.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

That's what I keep wondering. Folks seem very annoyed with Hasbro/WotC, but I can't for the life of me identify anything they've done that seems egregious. Their books have always been well priced. DnDBeyond is incredibly cheap, and the micro-transactions on it actually save you money by letting you choose to buy part of a book instead of the whole thing (plus, if you change you mind later and do want the rest of it, they discount what you already paid).

All the expensive stuff in the hobby is sold by third parties like Wizkids, Dwarven Forge, Beadle&Grimm, etc.

I don't understand what is driving the anger towards WotC. They've always been straight shooters, in my experience. They've got a good reputation with their staff, ex-staff, and business partners. They've done much better by their creatives than TSR ever did, that's for sure!

Maybe that will change, but it doesn't seem fair to judge them for stuff that might or might not happen. Given their history, I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Most of the lingering hatred stems from how they handled the digital products from 4th Edition, which were largely broken, proprietary, and downright horrific to use, despite charging a subscription fee. And because Wizards didn't want competition they refuses to allow any others to get licenses to create better alternative digital tools (legally). Objectively it was a disastrous failure and was one of the contributing factors to 4th Ed floundering while other competitors were far less restrictive with their digital side of things to great effect.

To make it clear, THAT is where the basis of concern stems: Wizards has already proven in the past that they are willing to tank an entire edition if it means maintaining a delusional sense "control" over their product or if they think it'll make them even $1 more profit.

Again, when you combine this a variety of other factors (the CEO talking at length about how they view the brand as "under monetized"), and a very legitimate concern that those 3rd party people do in fact have employees, many of whom whose livelihoods will be ruined if they are no longer able to support their staff from inability to make products or paying exorbitant Liscensing fees it is healthy to be concerned about the future of the industry.

Not to mention, for those of us who've been gaming for a long time, we've seen this song and dance before with video games. First people were outraged over horse armor while some people made comments like yours asking if it was really so bad? Now we've got microtransactions, loot boxes, live-service games, and psychological manipulation/techniques being used to systematically exploit vulnerable people. And people just largely accept it as "normal" for the industry now. They know full well what they are doing, and to pretend otherwise is foolish and shortsighted. Additionally, let's say they succeed in this scheme? Whose to say the rest of the rpg industry (paizo, chaoism, etc.) won't be next?

I'm pretty sure it stems from the Magic: The Gathering side of WotC, where the monetization of cards (both on the primay and secondary market) has made play difficult for all but the most dedicated whales. It's not just $1000 randomized proxy cards either; it's the constant churn of multiple sets (often one per month), supplemental items, card bans and meta-shakeups, and the fact that even Arena, their "free to play" MTG online system, is heavily weighted toward pay-to-win rather than slowly collecting into a viable deck. People fear that a level of monetization equal to that could be coming to D&D.

Now, truth be told, I don't think they can MTG-ize D&D. They did the splat-of-the-month-club style of content release and it failed. D&D Beyond currently is monetized about as far as you can take table-top D&D. (Digital books, subscription rewards, virtual dice and pretty background "sheets") They might attempt to push the VTT (with purchasing minis, modules, terrain, etc.) but again, there are plenty of alternatives to that, ranging from Foundry to Roll20 to your kitchen table.

That is until Wizards requires all third party VTTs to have a liscensing agreement or be unable to publish material for their new game of any kind, and then either just "forgets" or "refuses" to allow any of their direct competitors to have said licenses, or otherwise forces them to pay so large a cut they can no longer feasibly compete with their VTT. Pretty much what Amazon or Apple do with their respective markets already. And quite a number of people take issue there as well.

Remind me what they said in that press release again? That VTTs were NOT covered by the OGL and the new OGL update will clarify this? Hmm.

 

[Incenjucar]

It is entirely possible that WotC will take its digital tools and new licensing down a bad path, and that they will use whatever means to persuade 3rd parties to follow. However, we're still running primarily on speculation, and their ability to force any of this is limited, and trying to force it would likely backfire. PnP RPGs don't offer them the same kind of control that video game developers have in creating impulse control traps.

 

[Remathilis]

Most of the lingering hatred stems from how they handled the digital products from 4th Edition, which were largely broken, proprietary, and downright horrific to use, despite charging a subscription fee. And because Wizards didn't want competition they refuses to allow any others to get licenses to create better alternative digital tools (legally). Objectively it was a disastrous failure and was one of the contributing factors to 4th Ed floundering while other competitors were far less restrictive with their digital side of things to great effect.

To make it clear, THAT is where the basis of concern stems: Wizards has already proven in the past that they are willing to tank an entire edition if it means maintaining a delusional sense "control" over their product or if they think it'll make them even $1 more profit.

Again, when you combine this a variety of other factors (the CEO talking at length about how they view the brand as "under monetized"), and a very legitimate concern that those 3rd party people do in fact have employees, many of whom whose livelihoods will be ruined if they are no longer able to support their staff from inability to make products or paying exorbitant Liscensing fees it is healthy to be concerned about the future of the industry.

Not to mention, for those of us who've been gaming for a long time, we've seen this song and dance before with video games. First people were outraged over horse armor while some people made comments like yours asking if it was really so bad? Now we've got microtransactions, loot boxes, live-service games, and psychological manipulation/techniques being used to systematically exploit vulnerable people. And people just largely accept it as "normal" for the industry now. They know full well what they are doing, and to pretend otherwise is foolish and shortsighted. Additionally, let's say they succeed in this scheme? Whose to say the rest of the rpg industry (paizo, chaoism, etc.) won't be next?

That is until Wizards requires all third party VTTs to have a liscensing agreement or be unable to publish material for their new game of any kind, and then either just "forgets" or "refuses" to allow any of their direct competitors to have said licenses, or otherwise forces them to pay so large a cut they can no longer feasibly compete with their VTT. Pretty much what Amazon or Apple do with their respective markets already. And quite a number of people take issue there as well.

Remind me what they said in that press release again? That VTTs were NOT covered by the OGL and the new OGL update will clarify this? Hmm.

While healthy scepticism is welcomed, this borders on Paranoia. It assumes WotC is outright lying about its intentions and that once the door is open, every other company (Paizo? Really?) Will step through it too.

WotC isn't stupid, contrary to popular belief. Getting Roll20 and other VTTs to pay for a license is far better PR than yanking it all and forcing them all onto their own. They still have to compete with other forms of entertainment, and today's gamer could move onto another hobby if they push too hard. WotC will play for the whales, but they will leave openings for others too.

 

[MockingBird]

Doesn't Paizo already have a subscription service?

 

[mamba]

WotC isn't stupid, contrary to popular belief. Getting Roll20 and other VTTs to pay for a license is far better PR than yanking it all and forcing them all onto their own.

Not charging a fee in the OGL is far better PR than doing so, yet here we are.

I grant you that the OGL is the more esoteric issue for most people, many more are aware of VTTs

No idea where you got forcing Paizo, Kobold and others onto the WotC VTT either

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I can’t answer this poll for the answer depends on what is included with the subscription.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

While healthy scepticism is welcomed, this borders on Paranoia. It assumes WotC is outright lying about its intentions and that once the door is open, every other company (Paizo? Really?) Will step through it too.

WotC isn't stupid, contrary to popular belief. Getting Roll20 and other VTTs to pay for a license is far better PR than yanking it all and forcing them all onto their own. They still have to compete with other forms of entertainment, and today's gamer could move onto another hobby if they push too hard. WotC will play for the whales, but they will leave openings for others too.

And personally I think you are not weary enough. Or perhaps have far more faith in a handful of out of touch executives to not make shortsighted decisions in pursuit of higher profit margins and the delusions of infinite growth... ya know, like every other corporation out there?

But hey, when you're paying a monthly fee to even play the game and buying "class packs" using some asinine fake currency like "astral diamonds" and your players are buying magic items against your wishes as a DM using "loot chests" (assuming of course you haven't been replaced by AI DMs at this point), you've only yourself to blame for not being "paranoid" enough to have seen it coming. I for one will not celebrate the painful death of another loved hobby at the hands of corporate greed's corrupting influence over the course of several years. That's one pot this particular frog won't just keep swimming in until I'm already boiled.