D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to bring the game back to the dungeon?

[Reynard]

I like the image of the strobe light effect while a party who's [nly light sources are magic weapons engage the enemy.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I like the image of the strobe light effect while a party who's [nly light sources are magic weapons engage the enemy.

The thing is it puts out 60' radius light that is "bright as full daylight" in 2E.

So the sheer amount of reflected light from multiple people with weapons like that, bouncing off walls, floors, ceilings, each other, and so on would mean there probably wasn't much of a strobe/jumping shadows effect unless you were in an extremely wide-open area (outdoors or in a truly massive cavern).

But it would look weird as hell, that's for sure.

I'm sure we'll see something similar in a videogame, sooner or later.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'll post it again.
View attachment 270778
All magic daggers shed light when drawn, as per the DMG.

EDIT: That's what I get for not doing research, I forgot daggers were only 10' of light. I know at some point light generation was improved, but that apparently was 3e, where 30% of magic weapons shed 20' of bright light and 40' of dim light. Oops!

Though I guess you could wrap one to a 10' pole to see 20' ahead, lol.

Optional rules are optional. Also scales changed in 3.x. It went from one inch to ten fee to one one inch to five feet‡. 2e PHB PG155 reads: "Weapon** 5 ft. As desired
** Magical weapons shed light if your DM allows this optional rule"

Given that it was 1inch squares=10ft* having a 5ft lightsource is like using a candle to see with & was literally the same value as a candle on that same table. You are really overselling those free candle equivalents.
*sometimes yards.

‡ good discussion on that here

 

[reelo]

So I'm not really seeing an immeasurable gap with 5e, with the exceptions that it's harder for characters to die when brought to 0 hit points (which I see as a feature, since it means the adventure isn't as likely to come to a screeching halt until new characters can be added to it), and natural healing has a beat up character ready to go after a night's rest, as opposed to two weeks- again a feature, since you can get back to the action.

Both of these things can easily be mitigated if the party includes hirelings/retainers: if your character dies, the torchbearer gets "promoted" to PC.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

2nd level, and can be cast thirty years ago.

Depends on the class. It was on a different level for clerics and magic users.
But yes. You cast it. Put it in a box and open it whenever necessary.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Now how about tying a +1 dagger to the end of a 10' pole? LOL.

No, you tie it to a 20' rope and swing it in a circle over your head.

But not if you are the only halfling in the party.

 

[Starfox]

In the spirit of the thread's origin, one thing I feel makes a game more dungeon-crawling is to emphasize the loot. In 1E you got xp from gold, which made the game very objective-oriented. You did not want to fight monsters, you wanted to steal their gold, preferably without them noticing. Heist-style play. I thing this is a great angle for dungeons - but perhaps not one where tracking water supplies is what matters.

How, exactly, is darkvision so problematic, when it imposes disadvantage on perception (and -5 to passive perception)? To see better than this, you still need a light source in 5e.

If everyone interpreted dim light like you do, I would see no problem. But in a level of light that does not in itself let people use Stealth (it merely disadvantages Perception), I see dim light as murk rather than almost darkness. However, your reading, with appropriate penalties in dim light, is almost the same as how I read darkness, so we sort of agree there.

Alright, so to the main point of the post. What would I do if I were to try to project doing something like Torchbearer-ifying 5e D&D for One D&D:
...

I would start with that and see how it fares. It would need a lot of work and a lot of stress-testing to get it right.

To me, this is a dungeon survival boardgame, not a role-playing game. Which is my general issue with procedural games like Mouse Guard (the only game of this type I actually played). To me these are games where you manipulates elements of game mechanics rather than role-playing games. Different takes for different folks.

thinking more about what made White Plume Mountain fun, but also something I wouldn't do too often, a lot of it comes down to the lack of story.

The story was not at all obvious in the older adventures. I recalling meeting the vampire in Lost Caves of Tsojcant and admiring the armor, but not knowing or caring who wore it. It didn't matter, just smite.

I feel this has improved vastly, and much of this was Paizo's Dungeon Magazine's doing. They made adventures where the plot was easily accessible and mattered, and set the style for many adventures.

 

[Manbearcat]

To me, this is a dungeon survival boardgame, not a role-playing game. Which is my general issue with procedural games like Mouse Guard (the only game of this type I actually played). To me these are games where you manipulates elements of game mechanics rather than role-playing games. Different takes for different folks.

I don't quite understand how you arrive at this position.

If you played Mouse Guard like that...you were playing it in a way that is outside of not just the spirit of the game, but the actual procedures of the game. Same thing with Torchbearer.

The fiction matters DEEPLY to resolution in these games. You don't get to ignore that fiction whether you're a GM framing an obstacle/problem area or creating a Twist in a Mission in Mouse Guard or a Journey/Adventure in Torchbearer. You don't get to ignore that fiction if you're counting up Factors to determine the Obstacle Rating for a Test. You don't get to ignore that fiction if you're a player (d) orienting yourself to the obstacle/problem area before you, (b) rummaging through your decision-space to ultimately determine what resources you can bring to bear here and what Skill you're going to Test (and if you can tap Nature or use a Trait etc), or (c) the downstream consequences of your resolved actions (the new fiction fiction/gamestate, your ticks on Advancement, if you've fought for or struggled with your Belief, etc).

Just like in D&D...you know what...MORESO than in D&D, the fiction matters. Why? Because the consequences in these games of a fiction evolved in an adversarial way (with an attendant negative gamestate evolution) to your character has MUCH_MORE_TEETH than in D&D.

Consequences in the bulk of D&D are comparatively much more color and performative than they are in Mouse Guard and CERTAINLY MORE in Torchbearer. Fictional outputs often create significant if not dire changes to characters and the crucible (setting, situation, story) in which they are being tested.

Fundamentally disagree...and I don't even know how you could arrive at such a conclusion to be honest.

EDIT - Question for you and for anyone else who is interested in replying.

When you make the claim "you manipulate game mechanics rather than <play a> roleplaying game" (eg the fiction doesn't matter as an input to action declaration and resolution and subsequent fiction/gamestate) are you saying something like this:

The GM's fiction (their preconceived ideas on setting and/or metaplot or an AP) doesn't have primacy in the trajectory of play (including the authority to suspend rules and impose desired outcomes if the GM feels its more conducive to a "good story") and/or the player's performative color/flourishes aren't their own primary input? Put another way, the formulation is:

GM provides story/setting

Players provide color and performative flourish.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I don't quite understand how you arrive at this position.

If you played Mouse Guard like that...you were playing it in a way that is outside of not just the spirit of the game, but the actual procedures of the game. Same thing with Torchbearer.

The fiction matters DEEPLY to resolution in these games. You don't get to ignore that fiction whether you're a GM framing an obstacle/problem area or creating a Twist in a Mission in Mouse Guard or a Journey/Adventure in Torchbearer. You don't get to ignore that fiction if you're counting up Factors to determine the Obstacle Rating for a Test. You don't get to ignore that fiction if you're a player (d) orienting yourself to the obstacle/problem area before you, (b) rummaging through your decision-space to ultimately determine what resources you can bring to bear here and what Skill you're going to Test (and if you can tap Nature or use a Trait etc), or (c) the downstream consequences of your resolved actions (the new fiction fiction/gamestate, your ticks on Advancement, if you've fought for or struggled with your Belief, etc).

Just like in D&D...you know what...MORESO than in D&D, the fiction matters. Why? Because the consequences in these games of a fiction evolved in an adversarial way (with an attendant negative gamestate evolution) to your character has MUCH_MORE_TEETH than in D&D.

Consequences in the bulk of D&D are comparatively much more color and performative than they are in Mouse Guard and CERTAINLY MORE in Torchbearer. Fictional outputs often create significant if not dire changes to characters and the crucible (setting, situation, story) in which they are being tested.

Fundamentally disagree...and I don't even know how you could arrive at such a conclusion to be honest.

EDIT - Question for you and for anyone else who is interested in replying.

When you make the claim "you manipulate game mechanics rather than <play a> roleplaying game" (eg the fiction doesn't matter as an input to action declaration and resolution and subsequent fiction/gamestate) are you saying something like this:

The GM's fiction (their preconceived ideas on setting and/or metaplot or an AP) doesn't have primacy in the trajectory of play (including the authority to suspend rules and impose desired outcomes if the GM feels its more conducive to a "good story") and/or the player's performative color/flourishes aren't their own primary input? Put another way, the formulation is:

GM provides story/setting

Players provide color and performative flourish.

As you know, I’ve read, and appreciated, what you and others have taken the time to explain about Mouseguard/Torchbearer. And I appreciate the elegance of the design.

And yet I also sympathize somewhat with that poster’s position. Not that MG/TB/BW aren’t roleplaying, but they are a very different kind of roleplaying. So much so that I can see how somebody who had only been exposed to one form or the other would say, “That’s not roleplaying!”

In the same way that music fans have, over the years, said the same thing about new music forms.

Doesn’t mean they are right, but it’s an understandable reaction.

 

[pemerton]

To me, this is a dungeon survival boardgame, not a role-playing game. Which is my general issue with procedural games like Mouse Guard (the only game of this type I actually played). To me these are games where you manipulates elements of game mechanics rather than role-playing games. Different takes for different folks.

As you know, I’ve read, and appreciated, what you and others have taken the time to explain about Mouseguard/Torchbearer. And I appreciate the elegance of the design.

And yet I also sympathize somewhat with that poster’s position. Not that MG/TB/BW aren’t roleplaying, but they are a very different kind of roleplaying. So much so that I can see how somebody who had only been exposed to one form or the other would say, “That’s not roleplaying!”

I don't sympathise at all, to be honest. I think it's absurd to describe my Torchbearer play as a dungeon-survival wargame. The fiction has more potency, the characters more vibrancy, and the situations more drama than any of the 2nd ed AD&D RPGing I did in the 90s that absolutely fits the "trad" model that I assume Starfox has in mind when they think of a RPG.

Here's my most recent AP report: Torchbearer 2e - actual play of this AWESOME system! (+)

How is that not an utterly straightforward instance of RPGing?