Ryan Dancey -- Hasbro Cannot Deauthorize OGL

I reached out to the architect of the original Open Gaming License, former VP of Wizard of the Coast, Ryan Dancey, and asked his opinion about the current plan by WotC to 'deauthorize' the current OGL in favour of a new one.

He responded as follows:

Yeah my public opinion is that Hasbro does not have the power to deauthorize a version of the OGL. If that had been a power that we wanted to reserve for Hasbro, we would have enumerated it in the license. I am on record numerous places in email and blogs and interviews saying that the license could never be revoked.

Ryan also maintains the Open Gaming Foundation.

As has been noted previously, even WotC in its own OGL FAQ did not believe at the time that the licence could be revoked.

7. Can't Wizards of the Coast change the License in a way that I wouldn't like?

Yes, it could. However, the License already defines what will happen to content that has been previously distributed using an earlier version, in Section 9. As a result, even if Wizards made a change you disagreed with, you could continue to use an earlier, acceptable version at your option. In other words, there's no reason for Wizards to ever make a change that the community of people using the Open Gaming License would object to, because the community would just ignore the change anyway.

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[GMforPowergamers]

You need to explain why you gave the example you did, then.

Your example makes absolutely no sense at all if you understood this before you posted it. Your example only makes any sense at all if you were assuming that a $750k KS mean the creators taking home (pre-tax) $750k, because your examples were all of pre-tax incomes. It's okay to make a mistake, but it's best to admit them. If you think you didn't make an error and in fact had a different point re: $750k, what was it?

my example was revenue... not profit and I said that many times,
but let me say (what I think) is the most important part again...

There are problems. There are REAL victims, including the guy who makes it possible to have this conversation... you a fan with some fan works are NOT the victim here. People could lose there main source of income over this. Keep that in mind.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

my example was revenue... not profit and I said that many times,

Exactly.

Which makes no sense, because you focused on something vastly more profitable - having a normal job and other income sources that average to around $150k. I'm wondering if you didn't miss some words or something in your example, because it really looked 100% like you were saying the Kickstarter was 100% profit not 100% revenue. If that wasn't what you intended, you failed to convey it.

There are problems. There are REAL victims, including the guy who makes it possible to have this conversation... you a fan with some fan works are NOT the victim here. People could lose there main source of income over this. Keep that in mind.

I'm not sure what this is even supposed to mean? I've never once in hundreds of posts on this subject claimed to be a "victim", but have you repeatedly suggested that people aren't really suffering. Now you're changing that, so okay but...

 

[Vaalingrade]

There are problems. There are REAL victims, including the guy who makes it possible to have this conversation... you a fan with some fan works are NOT the victim here. People could lose there main source of income over this. Keep that in mind.

Nah fam, they're also targeting fan works. While it's not the version that got leaked, but there is a fan work policy that will bring the hammer down on those too.

And yeah, those fans might not be making a living, but there's no point of trying to one up someone's harm when the same guy is harming both.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Exactly.

Which makes no sense, because you focused on something vastly more profitable - having a normal job and other income sources that average to around $150k. I'm wondering if you didn't miss some words or something in your example, because it really looked 100% like you were saying the Kickstarter was 100% profit not 100% revenue. If that wasn't what you intended, you failed to convey it.

at no point did I ever in any of my examples say ANYTHING is 100% profit... in my day job I have had to explain in detail to managers that NO in fact useing something we bought for another project, and people who 'are already on payroll' is not in fact free profit... and no I am not kidding I had to give a power point presentation to explain that concept.

I'm not sure what this is even supposed to mean? I've never once in hundreds of posts on this subject claimed to be a "victim", but have you repeatedly suggested that people aren't really suffering. Now you're changing that, so okay but...

no you haven't... but I have seen plenty that think if you are against people losing there lively hood (I am) you must think the OGL was the best thing since sliced bread (I do not). and I have been accused in the past of thinking that individual creators at 3pp should not exists (I do not feel that way either) and right now I see A LOT of people claiming that the fans are being victimized (I do not believe that or support that belief) and that there is an right of some kind to all games/ip ext to be free and open (I am understanding why and how someone feels that way but I personally do not). I have a VERY complex set of thoughts and put things like that on my posts to show that there is a nuance to my beliefs...
If WotC could shut down all the 3pp legally the only issue I see is the people being put out of work.
If (and this one I think is what is happening) WotC is Bullying the others out with questionable legal wordsmithing I see not only the above 'people out of work' issue but the bully/throwing your weight around as an issue too.
I will also be upset if (I don't think it will happen with back projects but worst case here) my 3pp book I just kickstarted never happens because of this I will be disappointed I only got the PDF and not the physical book... HOWEVER I will be VERY much more upset if those writers lose the jobs they have and don't immediately get a new one of equal or lesser value.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Nah fam, they're also targeting fan works.

how so? do you think if I put a new class up on enworld 6 weeks after this new OGL goes live they will send me a C&D over a free class on a website?
Simeone said something up page about a blog that charged... if that blog make $200 a month (revenue not profit) for $2,400 a year do you think a C&D is coming there way?

While it's not the version that got leaked, but there is a fan work policy that will bring the hammer down on those too.

I am not a diviner... I only play one in ravenloft so I can't see the future. My fears are not currently on fan works, mine is on VTT being shut down, and the idea that after Beyond (or if they rebrand it) fails to do what they say it will (and someone in another thread said it better then I could, we could be here all day listing electronic WotC fails) and they already shut the other ones down we WONT have ANY way to do it.

And yeah, those fans might not be making a living, but there's no point of trying to one up someone's harm when the same guy is harming both.

I am not one upping. (Infact my worst harm I can imagine right now is being out about $60) I am saying that people are blowing out of proportion how bad this is for us who play D&D from WotC and buy the occasional 3pp product.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

how so? do you think if I put a new class up on enworld 6 weeks after this new OGL goes live they will send me a C&D over a free class on a website?
Simeone said something up page about a blog that charged... if that blog make $200 a month (revenue not profit) for $2,400 a year do you think a C&D is coming there way?

So here's the thing that hasn't been discussed much.

There are two OGL 1.1s.

OGL: Commercial

and

OGL: Non-commercial

The latter seems to be strictly for products you do not intend to make any money off.

However, it's very hard to see why OGL: Non-commercial exists, if fan works aren't going to be targeted in some way. WotC have publicly stated the Fan Content Policy will continue to exist, but why this other OGL? Because literally everything it could cover (and vastly more) is covered by the Fan Content Policy.

It's true that it's a much more uncertain threat, but it is definitely weird and concerning, especially in the context of what else is happening.

I am saying that people are blowing out of proportion how bad this is for us who play D&D from WotC and buy the occasional 3pp product.

What you don't seem to realize is that not all of us ONLY do that. A lot of ALSO play games covered by the OGL, which the general deauthorization will absolutely jack to hell and back. That's my bigger concern. I don't buy that much 3PP material for 5E. But I do buy plenty of non-5E compatible OGL-covered games, and/or games WotC may decide it would be fun to sue once they've deleted the OGL 1.0a.

 

[Yaarel]

There are two OGL 1.1s.

OGL: Commercial

and

OGL: Non-commercial

The latter seems to be strictly for products you do not intend to make any money off.

However, it's very hard to see why OGL: Non-commercial exists, if fan works aren't going to be targeted in some way. WotC have publicly stated the Fan Content Policy will continue to exist, but why this other OGL? Because literally everything it could cover (and vastly more) is covered by the Fan Content Policy.

It's true that it's a much more uncertain threat, but it is definitely weird and concerning, especially in the context of what else is happening.

What you don't seem to realize is that not all of us ONLY do that. A lot of ALSO play games covered by the OGL, which the general deauthorization will absolutely jack to hell and back. That's my bigger concern. I don't buy that much 3PP material for 5E. But I do buy plenty of non-5E compatible OGL-covered games, and/or games WotC may decide it would be fun to sue once they've deleted the OGL 1.0a.

The OGL:Noncommercial exists because: "We can modify or terminate this agreement for any reason whatsoever."

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What you don't seem to realize is that not all of us ONLY do that.

right and I spelled out where I am and how it will and will not effect me.

A lot of ALSO play games covered by the OGL, which the general deauthorization will absolutely jack to hell and back.

correct, if this goes the worst way Piazo and Pathfinder is gone. I will sing no victory song and do no dance on that grave (and I have even supported that company FYI even though that is my path) However the players will take a minor hit, and still have every book and can still access every pdf they bought. the 'damage' to the PF player is no more or less then was to the 2e player when 3e launched, or 4e player when 5e launched. It sucks. I would much rather get new updated fixes and support for 4e then have 5e. But I am not a victim I am not harmed in a major life altering way that 4e died. And I have watched pathfinder players do exactly what I said I would not... sing victory songs and dance on the grave of 4e.
However and I can not stress this enough... if that happens all of those employees still have bills (I wont go into unemployment and current job markets) and have to figure out what to do when last week they were secure in there jobs (well maybe 7 weeks ago but under NDA)

That's my bigger concern. I don't buy that much 3PP material for 5E. But I do buy plenty of non-5E compatible OGL-covered games, and/or games WotC may decide it would be fun to sue once they've deleted the OGL 1.0a.

The examples I have seen (mutants and master minds, Fate, Pathfinder, Level Up, and Castles and Crusaders) only 2 I don't know a lot about... but I know enough I bet Fate is fine. Mutants and Masterminds is WAY more grey, they have already grown so far that they MAY get under it. PF LU and C&C are all on the firing line. I have a small amount of sympathy for the players of any of those systems that go out. The same amount I have if your favorite show ended on a cliff hanger and was canceled. THe employees and owners on the other hand are not just missing a game, they have major life changes because of this. THOSE people I feel very sorry for.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I am not one upping. (Infact my worst harm I can imagine right now is being out about $60)

You're downplaying those of others for... I have no idea why.

I am saying that people are blowing out of proportion how bad this is for us who play D&D from WotC and buy the occasional 3pp product.

I don't think you quite understand really how big the OGL was back in the day and how many games and tools and elements are its descendants.

This is like if someone was threatening to Thanos snap a certain brand of nails out of existence. A lot of people are kind of inexplicably pulling up to laugh and say "I don't care, I've never even heard of that brand of nails and I'm being very careful not to think of the livelihoods of all the people involved in it, so I can joyfully tell everyone I don't care for some reason", only they don't know if those nails were used to build their house or the swing set on their kids' playground, or if just one was used to hold up that family photo hanging over the mantle just so that it might knock over nana's ashes if it fell off the wall.

The OGL is a widespread, thought not ubiquitous or universal element of the gaming industry. There's no cool points to win saying you don't care or are unaffected; there's too many people who are for that.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You're downplaying those of others for... I have no idea why.

because when I look at this, i don't see it.

I don't think you quite understand really how big the OGL was back in the day and how many games and tools and elements are its descendants.

I was here when TSR was sending C&D to young kids with fan sites (Not here enworld didn't exsist yet and would have gotten a C&D if it did but you get what I mean)

I have a VERY good idea how much the OGL did and is worth. I also know that it pretty much made D&D the only game in town to most.

This is like if someone was threatening to Thanos snap a certain brand of nails out of existence. A lot of people are kind of inexplicably pulling up to laugh and say "I don't care, I've never even heard of that brand of nails and I'm being very careful not to think of the livelihoods of all the people involved in it, so I can joyfully tell everyone I don't care for some reason", only they don't know if those nails were used to build their house or the swing set on their kids' playground, or if just one was used to hold up that family photo hanging over the mantle just so that it might knock over nana's ashes if it fell off the wall.

yeah, see this again seems overblown. I'm not saying that this isn't effecting anyone, and I want to single out I must have said 200 times in the last 3 days part of what you said is 100% false.

I'm being very careful not to think of the livelihoods of all the people involved in it, so I can joyfully tell everyone I don't care for some reason

I AM fighting for those people. I am advocating (in my small modest way) not because I think this will hurt me (its worst case most likely is a minor issue at best TO ME) however it is earth shattering to some... and contrary to what some of those people who's earth is being shattered think, THAT UPSETS ME... thinking of the people who could lose everything is WHY I am here now posting instead of sleeping. Trying to piece to gather things, trying to help with my knowledge (limited as it is) where I can.
But make no mistake, for most of us (aka people not selling any D&D work) this is as annoying as if there favorite show got canceled after the cliffhanger season ender. Or ANY edition ends. 4e ended. It was my favorite version of D&D. V5 replaced V20 and V20 is my favored WoD system, in between they had there own 4e like fiasco...
Deadlands became Savage worlds and as much as I like Savage worlds I miss the old Deadlands a bit.

systems going out of print sucks, but in a "ouch I stubbed my toe" kind of way.
Losing your job could be so life changing (both good and bad) and can mess up everything you have been working toward for years.

The OGL is a widespread, thought not ubiquitous or universal element of the gaming industry. There's no cool points to win saying you don't care or are unaffected; there's too many people who are for that.

again, I will be minor effected. I am sure there are players (NOT CREATORS) who both have more and less that will be effected by this. Over all just measuring by EFFECTING ME PERSONALLY, I would not care... EXCEPT I have this dumb voice in my head and feeling in my stomach that makes me have this thing called empathy. My empathy allows me to remember every job I lost and every set back I have had and look at the 3pp like paizo and feel for them. Those people, the people working on Level up, the people working on Pathfinder, those people is who I am advocating for, not me myself.

However no, the guy who went from 3e to PF and now tor PF2e who is complaining his life will be effected so bad if PF2e goes out an Piazo shuts down... nope my empathy for him is the same as it is for you or me losing 4e, or someone that felt that Tasha's started down a path taking 5e from them. It stinks to not get new content. I'm sorry... but not the same or even close to "Oh, you were getting married the same week as me but now you are unemployed"