OGL 1.2 survey is now live

[Haplo781]

But so many people here won't even accept that anymore or a reversion to how things were two months ago.
They don't just need to preserve the 1.0a OGL but provide reparations of some kind. The poster I was responded wanted nothing less than multiple firings of key executives.

I mean the people responsible for pushing this garbage should lose their jobs, as a show of good faith by WizBro.

 

[Haplo781]

Yeah, of the people who cancelled DDB (which was 5 digits and closer to 50k according to reports, which is still less than a percentage point of DDB's subscribers let alone D&D players) only a minority will not forgive. But this bugs me because it's dominating the conversation and drowning out all the reasonable discussion and voices. All the actual feedback for the new license is being shouted down.

The OGL 1.0a is going away. We need to get over ourselves and bruised egos and accept this. And if we actually care about 3rd Party Publishers like we claim, work to make the new license as good as possible. And forgive WotC and let go of this anger.
Because a healthy WotC and strong D&D helps 3PP.
If D&D takes a nose dive and the audience splits into four or five different games and editions, it will also quarter sales for those 3rd Party Publishers. Assuming they can even make content for those games: there are quite a lot of popular games that have no Open Gaming license or 3rd Party support.

20-25% of D&D's sales is like 10x the sales of their nearest competitor so this is a win.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They can still listen and not do what you want. I don't have the same requirements you do and will likely give different feedback. They can't serve everyone, even if they are listening to evryone

Who would be unhappy if they just walked this back and left 1.0a alone?

Other than WotC, of course.

 

[raniE]

They need the customers. Where or not we're representative of the customers is another issue.
We're probably not. Kickstarters for 3rd Party products only sell to people in the thousands while millions play D&D. 50,000 people unsubscribed to DnDBeyond, but that's likely a single percentage point of subscribers and numbers they might make up in six months.

The question is if enough people will respond to this survey with "keep the OGL 1.0a" and how many people will respond to this survey compared to the playtest surveys. (I.e. how many people actually care.)
Based on sales numbers of the book on Amazon, this doesn't really seem to be affecting the money WotC is making and is mostly bad PR and a very vocal minority.

The question is really whether it's worth it for WotC to win us back. If it's too hard and our demands are too high they'll just write us off.

50,000 subscribers is a lot. D&D Beyond has a bit over 10 million user accounts. How large a percentage of those do you think have subscriptions? For 50,000 to be only one percentage point, there would have to be 5 million subscribers. How many free apps that also have a subscription tier do you know which boast a 50% subscriber rate?

 

[overgeeked]

Who would be unhappy if they just walked this back and left 1.0a alone?

Other than WotC, of course.

Basically everyone. Right now it's a pressure pot of nastiness causing people to make rash decisions, cancel Kickstarters, not complete projects they've been working on, etc. If WotC backed off completely that would give everyone time to do their thing until they found a better license, i.e. the ORC comes out. People would still be pissed and still likely move away from 5E and WotC over this, but at least the immediacy of it would die.

 

[raniE]

Yeah, of the people who cancelled DDB (which was 5 digits and closer to 50k according to reports, which is still less than a percentage point of DDB's subscribers let alone D&D players) only a minority will not forgive. But this bugs me because it's dominating the conversation and drowning out all the reasonable discussion and voices. All the actual feedback for the new license is being shouted down.

Where are you getting those numbers? The numbers I see is D&D Beyond has over 10 million accounts. For 50,000 to be less than a percentage point, over 5 million accounts would need to be subscribed. I haven’t been able to find any info on how many subscribers Beyond has, but I highly doubt it’s 50% or more. Hell I doubt it’s as high as 20%.

The OGL 1.0a is going away. We need to get over ourselves and bruised egos and accept this. And if we actually care about 3rd Party Publishers like we claim, work to make the new license as good as possible. And forgive WotC and let go of this anger.
Because a healthy WotC and strong D&D helps 3PP.
If D&D takes a nose dive and the audience splits into four or five different games and editions, it will also quarter sales for those 3rd Party Publishers. Assuming they can even make content for those games: there are quite a lot of popular games that have no Open Gaming license or 3rd Party support.

Nope. Some people will fight for the OGL 1.0a, and Hasbro may very well lose in court and be told they have no ability to deauthorize the license. If Hasbro wants any of my money going forward, the OGL will only be updated to clarify that is irrevocable and not subject to deauthorization and then moves under the control of an existing non-profit with a focus on copyleft and open content and no ties to Hasbro. Hasbro are the ones that have to let go of their bruised egos and in modern parlance take the L.

 

[FormerLurker]

50,000 subscribers is a lot. D&D Beyond has a bit over 10 million user accounts. How large a percentage of those do you think have subscriptions? For 50,000 to be only one percentage point, there would have to be 5 million subscribers. How many free apps that also have a subscription tier do you know which boast a 50% subscriber rate?

Misremembered the exact number when I said "under a percentage point."
I tend to ballpark it at 2 million. Which seems like the average ratio of DMs to players. (But a lot of players might sub as well.) Which is 2.5%.
Keep in mind that in 2021 D&D grew by 33%, the seventh year in a row of growth. And Stranger Things and Vecna gave a huge books last year.
So a dip of 2.5%—not all of which will stay unsubscribed—might not even cancel out the growth for this year.

 

[Haplo781]

Who would be unhappy if they just walked this back and left 1.0a alone?

Other than WotC, of course.

Their shareholders

 

[raniE]

But so many people here won't even accept that anymore or a reversion to how things were two months ago.
They don't just need to preserve the 1.0a OGL but provide reparations of some kind. The poster I was responded wanted nothing less than multiple firings of key executives.

Yes. That’s what needs to happen now. Firstly because that’s how responses work and why you have to be quick. “Good enough” last week is “hot garbage” today. That’s how you get revolutions in countries too. The demands never start there, but terrible responses and an inability to get out in front of events get people there.

Secondly though, because otherwise there is no disincentive to naughty word around. Then the next executive to come in and want to mess with the OGL can get told “last guy who did ended up being fired to appease the mob”. If you naughty word up, you need to make amends, and that does not mean “just clean up the mess you made.”

 

[Justice and Rule]

Yeah, of the people who cancelled DDB (which was 5 digits and closer to 50k according to reports, which is still less than a percentage point of DDB's subscribers let alone D&D players) only a minority will not forgive. But this bugs me because it's dominating the conversation and drowning out all the reasonable discussion and voices. All the actual feedback for the new license is being shouted down.

No, this is wrong. The 5 digits are not cancellations, they are deletions. Just accounts completely gone. This is different from, say, what I have done and simply cancelled my subscription.

The OGL 1.0a is going away. We need to get over ourselves and bruised egos and accept this. And if we actually care about 3rd Party Publishers like we claim, work to make the new license as good as possible. And forgive WotC and let go of this anger.

Uh, why? It's still up in the air whether or not OGL 1.0a goes away, whether it be Wizards' choice or in a courtroom. You talk about bruised egos, but the person who did the wrong thing here is Wizards. They are the ones who clearly had bruised egos when they also claimed victory. I don't see any reason to forgive a company that has been recklessly going after their partners, breaking contracts, and just acting in bad faith all around. In fact, it makes me want to never forgive them because they haven't shown any sort of contrition. At all. They've just tried to keep it more under wraps.

Honestly, I don't get this sort of defense of Wizards. It's just kind of sad. There's no reason to be this attached to a set of rules or a company, especially when they act in such a malicious and destructive manner to the hobby. If Wizards wants forgiveness, it's a two-way street. Just begging people to stop and give in because Wizards is giving table scraps or things they can easily take away is just incredibly wrong-headed and weird.

Because a healthy WotC and strong D&D helps 3PP.

Not when they can just kill any 3PPs at their whim. They'd be constantly living as hostages where their entire output could be destroyed if they did not do what WotC wanted.

If D&D takes a nose dive and the audience splits into four or five different games and editions, it will also quarter sales for those 3rd Party Publishers. Assuming they can even make content for those games: there are quite a lot of popular games that have no Open Gaming license or 3rd Party support.

Alternatively it makes them permanent hostages of Wizards, who can decide whatever terms they want in the future. Splitting up the market would be way better than allowing someone to behead it any any given moment, especially when it comes to getting away from having a massive market leader who can do such things.