OGL OGL 1.2 survey is now live


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mamba

Hero
I dunno. Because it would be nice if everyone did something productive?
most of us are I believe, I do not see you pitching in though

If we all worked to make a difference instead of infighting?
see above, it is mostly you that everyone disagrees with

If instead of meaningless gestures that WotC won't notice we focused on the issues we actually could influence.
I can walk and chew gum at the same time

Because all the most passionate people here are just sitting around in verbal circle jerk wasting everyone's time?
if you feel that way, you are free to leave
 

Xyxox

Hero
Having dug into the Foundry API as well as the 3D compatibility I can start to see the real fear of WotC with regards to the VTT space. I figured out that I can easily take all of these 3D model files I've been using for printing and incorporrate them into a VTT campaign. I can't sell them or give them away, but I can certainly use them in my Foundry games that I host.

And there are tons of free STL files that can definitely be shard for this VTT experience. The Foundry API is exceptional for use as what WotC has been advertising as the goal for their tabletop, only with foundry you can do a complete set of adventures using nothing but FREE STL files! Some of the STL file creators also include Blender base files which are usable wihtout conversion, though it's easy enough to convert to the needed formats easily.

With a little more manipulation, I don't need a WotC VTT to get that experience for my players in my campaigns, I can easily put together an experience that will outdo anything WotC spends millions of dollars on with 350 developers because the 3D assets I would use are freely available and easily manipulated for the purpose of a 3D VTT. Other than spell effect and lighting effect animations, it could also be considered the same as a real tabletop experience, so long as I don't use an Unreal Engine to animate those assets.

I can see, however, a Foundry API that can hook into Unreal, and that would alter completely the VTT space to a point where WoitC could never really monetize it like they want. It seems to me what WotC is attempting now is to keep Foundry from doing the work to bring the Unreal Engine into the capabilities of the Foundry API. Honestly, I don't see it as much of a hurdle for Foundry other than the loss of revenue from 5E users.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Cancelling accounts also creates a support ticket. (As does filing a complaint.) You're reading what you want to read.
Admittedly it is unclear in that article and it does include those details in the same paragraph making it seem like they were talking about deletions.
Especially as outright deleting accounts would be a stupid thing to do. You'd lose all your books you've paid for. And since you can't come back, there's no reason for WotC to make any changes. If you cancel, there's a way for them to get you to return...

However, the support team is also understaffed AND was just returning for the two week holiday break. So a not insignificant number of those tickets were likely unrelated.
I really doubt a lot of people cancel or delete accounts in a two week period. Especially during the holidays when they are busy with other things.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Wait, what holidays?
It's late and I thought he said holidays. If not, my bad. Even so, I doubt many cancel or delete accounts during a two week period. The vast majority of those would be due to the news.

Anyway. As I said.....................late. Good night. :)

Edit: He did. "However, the support team is also understaffed AND was just returning for the two week holiday break. So a not insignificant number of those tickets were likely unrelated."
 

It's late and I thought he said holidays. If not, my bad. Even so, I doubt many cancel or delete accounts during a two week period. The vast majority of those would be due to the news.

Anyway. As I said.....................late. Good night. :)

Edit: He did. "However, the support team is also understaffed AND was just returning for the two week holiday break. So a not insignificant number of those tickets were likely unrelated."

I mean, that dude also miscited deletion requests as cancellations, so I wouldn't take everything they say as gospel.
 

dave2008

Legend
no it absolutely is not, it can be revoked just as easily as 1.0a (or easier, because 1.0a is older so might be protected by its old language)
I disagree, but in truth I am talking about what 1.2 can be, not what it is now. i have repeatedly explained there are areas that need correction. That needs to happen. If it doesn't, then I agree 1.2 has serious issues.

However, most importantly for me is...I am so tired of this discussion and negativity. I need / will stop commenting on OGL threads once I've finished responding to responses to this post. I was initially excited about all the possibilities of ORC and Black Flag, but the negativity has just soured me on the whole community. I need to take a break from the community and focus on enjoying the game.
 
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dave2008

Legend
WotC's attempts to de-authorize 1.0a are, IMO, the entire issue. Everything else relates to it.
Sure, but in truth that is separate (sort of) from the OGL 1.2.

However, most importantly for me is...I am so tired of this discussion and negativity. I need / will stop commenting on OGL threads once I've finished responding to responses to this post. I was initially excited about all the possibilities of ORC and Black Flag, but the negativity has just soured me on the whole community. I need to take a break from the community and focus on enjoying the game.
 


Xyxox

Hero
I started thinking about the Survey and figured it was spammable. I checked and yes, it is. Although I did not submit a second response to the survey, it can most definitely be spammed with multiple submissions. This makes ANY results suspect at best and no better than a standard internet poll, which as everybody knows are completely meaningless.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Basically everyone. Right now it's a pressure pot of nastiness causing people to make rash decisions, cancel Kickstarters, not complete projects they've been working on, etc. If WotC backed off completely that would give everyone time to do their thing until they found a better license, i.e. the ORC comes out. People would still be pissed and still likely move away from 5E and WotC over this, but at least the immediacy of it would die.
Nah, not "basically everyone." Sure, there will be a cooling off period. But if WotC took steps to clarify that OGL will not irrevocable and in a way that makes it nearly impossible for them to pull an action like this again--OR--even if they revoke v1a, but give nearly everything that was in v1a, plus some new content, in v2, making it irrevocable, I would say most people would come back to D&D 5e / One D&D. I don't know about most, but certainly many of those expressing anger and disappointment are people who WANT to play D&D, who want to create for D&D, and who want to enrich their game with third-party content for D&D. That where the emotion comes from for many people. Sure, some just don't like WotC or even D&D and enjoy piling on, but that isn't "basically everyone." Many people may leave D&D for some new system published under the ORCL and never look back, but that won't be "basically everyone."
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
It's not really a "boycott" if you're still playing the game and attracting new players to that game.

That's like boycotting McDonalds but still eating at the restaurant if someone else pays.
Absolutely not. It's using material I paid for before the company I bought it from decided to be terrible to me. I was going to buy Dragonlance, maybe Planescape, maybe even 6e if there was something in there my players wanted to use. Now I have chosen not to, and would encourage others to do the same. They get nothing more from me.
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
The junior high I work at started a D&D club this year, and already had enough people for three tables by mid-October.
Every year, new kids become old enough to watch Stranger Things or Critical Role for the first time. And WotC is working hard to attract new young players to the "brand" hoping they'll eventually start playing, with and multiple books aimed at young readers (1 2 3 4).

Which is probably why they want to push the 1.2 OGL so hard. They want to be this family friendly game that attracts young teens to the game, and don't want that jeopardized by offensive or needlessly adult products with "D&D compatible" slapped on the front.
Why do you keep insisting that anyone had the ability to say that their product was, "D&D compatible" under the 1.0a? They don't, and they never have.
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
Fiiiiiiine.
"Compatible with the Fifth Edition of the Word's Oldest/ Best/ Most Popular Roleplaying game."

I'm sure not actually mentioning "D&D" but just using the same rules and being sold alongside the D&D books will placate upset parents, who are always the most rational individuals in society.
Where are these upset parents, and what product are they upset about? Show me any example of this made-up, hypothetical problem.
 

I answered it. I get the downsides of doing so, but I think it's better for them to get that negative feedback on the critical issues, because at least they can then see that if they don't budge or can't budge, this isn't going to work.
Why do you keep insisting that anyone had the ability to say that their product was, "D&D compatible" under the 1.0a? They don't, and they never have.
Yeah that's a bizarre claim.

You don't actually need the OGL at all to say that, and you're at just as much of a legal risk (which is to say, a small but appreciable one) by saying it either in or out of the OGL.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Fiiiiiiine.
"Compatible with the Fifth Edition of the Word's Oldest/ Best/ Most Popular Roleplaying game."

I'm sure not actually mentioning "D&D" but just using the same rules and being sold alongside the D&D books will placate upset parents, who are always the most rational individuals in society.
This really doesn't have anything to do with upset parents. Most parents are going to buy the games from Amazon, a major retailer, or get their kids a D&D Beyond subscription.

This morality clause is coming from social media pressure from existing fandom who want WotC to use its weight to prevent content they find objectionable, oblivious to the fact that the content they like or create may fall victim to an even bigger mob, government, or other interest group that can pressure WotC to invoke section 6f of the the OGL 1.2.

The "not hateful content or conduct" provision makes the new gaming license not open. If there is no pre-review procedure (and why would WotC want to take on that cost), I would have to think twice before making a significant investment of time and money to publish under it. Get rid of the badges, get rid of section 6f, or keep it in OGL 1.2 but also leave the OGL 1a alone and make it clear that its irrevocable.
 
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Xyxox

Hero
which is quite a big hurdle though, isn’t it?
Maybe, it depends on where people decide to go. The foundry revenue stream is a one shot deal. They may get more from refugees that move to Pathfinder, it's hard to say. Since many people playing 5E on Foundry already paid, they may move over to Pathfinder as it is supported by the VTT tool they currently use.
 

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