OGL OGL 1.2 survey is now live

Micah Sweet

Legend
Someone who wants a better documents I guess? OGL 1.2 can be better than 1.0(a). I mean just a few days ago people were asking for a 1.0(b) with irrevocable added. That is essentially what 1.2 is (plus some more). It still needs work to get there (or where I want it be), but that is what it could be. As a reminder, 1.2 does not deauthorize 1.0(a).* So we can have OGL 1.2 and 1.0(a) and CC as methods to deliver D&D content.

*Currently WotC is deauthorizing 1.0(a) separately. Which I think will ultimately fail court challenges, but that is not really the issue.
WotC's attempts to de-authorize 1.0a are, IMO, the entire issue. Everything else relates to it.
 

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Solauren

Explorer
The other thing to think about, from WOTC point of view is - how long can it's current increased popularity last?

Yes, right now Stranger Things is 'hot'. It has 1 season left. Odds are, we won't see much D&D next season (since the city was just trashed and we left off with the two uber-psions having a transdimensional staredown). The movie can only do so much.

So, that leaves them with the 'Core fans', as is where.

Another way to put it - how many people did you play D&D in school with, that still play? Or that you have played with in the past, that still can/would/do?

For me, about 30 in Grade school, 15 in high school (different from Grade school), and we'll say 20 in College and post. About 65.
(And I'm in contact with 45 of them via Facebook)

Of those, 7 are still playing. That's counting my wife and me. So less then 10 percent.

WOTC needs to understand is this; in a few years, without Stranger Things and similar driving casual player interest, what's left?

That 10%. The majority of are current pissed off at them.
 

Micah Sweet

Legend
First, because it fills up the conversation with useless whining.
If you want to boycott then actually do so. Go to the Pathfinder forums or go talk about another game. You can't boycott and leave D&D and still be involved in the conversation. Make a choice: are you in or are you out.
And if you're in, then provide useful and constructive discussion about the survey and how to improve it. Accept—albeit reluctantly—the loss of the old license and instead work to make the new license better.

Second... because I actually care about the hobby and 3rd Party Publishers.
Improving the new license helps them and gives them the best terms.
And as I've outlined before, boycotting WotC and D&D just hurts 3PP by reducing their sales. You're not going to buy Flee Mortals or support the kickstarter to Kobold Press's Deep Magic 2 if you're not playing D&D. If you go off and play Fantasy Age or Vaesen or Lamentations of the Flame Princess you're also no longer supporting the 3PP that everyone was worried about when the OGL was threatened.
Many people already own D&D and have no need to purchase anything more from them. Those people, like myself can and do but 3pp products.
 


FormerLurker

Adventurer
Many people already own D&D and have no need to purchase anything more from them. Those people, like myself can and do but 3pp products.
It's not really a "boycott" if you're still playing the game and attracting new players to that game.

That's like boycotting McDonalds but still eating at the restaurant if someone else pays.
 

FormerLurker

Adventurer
The other thing to think about, from WOTC point of view is - how long can it's current increased popularity last?

Yes, right now Stranger Things is 'hot'. It has 1 season left. Odds are, we won't see much D&D next season (since the city was just trashed and we left off with the two uber-psions having a transdimensional staredown). The movie can only do so much.

So, that leaves them with the 'Core fans', as is where.

Another way to put it - how many people did you play D&D in school with, that still play? Or that you have played with in the past, that still can/would/do?

For me, about 30 in Grade school, 15 in high school (different from Grade school), and we'll say 20 in College and post. About 65.
(And I'm in contact with 45 of them via Facebook)

Of those, 7 are still playing. That's counting my wife and me. So less then 10 percent.

WOTC needs to understand is this; in a few years, without Stranger Things and similar driving casual player interest, what's left?

That 10%. The majority of are current pissed off at them.
The junior high I work at started a D&D club this year, and already had enough people for three tables by mid-October.
Every year, new kids become old enough to watch Stranger Things or Critical Role for the first time. And WotC is working hard to attract new young players to the "brand" hoping they'll eventually start playing, with and multiple books aimed at young readers (1 2 3 4).

Which is probably why they want to push the 1.2 OGL so hard. They want to be this family friendly game that attracts young teens to the game, and don't want that jeopardized by offensive or needlessly adult products with "D&D compatible" slapped on the front.
 


Azzy

KMF DM
First, because it fills up the conversation with useless whining.
If you want to boycott then actually do so. Go to the Pathfinder forums or go talk about another game. You can't boycott and leave D&D and still be involved in the conversation. Make a choice: are you in or are you out.
Stop trying to tell people what they can or cannot do. Also stop with this false dichotomy. People can boycott WotC by not purchasing anything from WotC/Hasbro unless they stop pursuing this course of action AND still play 5e witheir exising books and with 3PP material. It's not hard to do, in fact.

And if you're in, then provide useful and constructive discussion about the survey and how to improve it. Accept—albeit reluctantly—the loss of the old license and instead work to make the new license better.
Accepting it wouldn't have brought the change so far from the 1.1 to the 1.2. Accepting it won't bring further change.
 

FormerLurker

Adventurer
It's a good thing that the OGL 1.0a expressly prohibits that, then!
Fiiiiiiine.
"Compatible with the Fifth Edition of the Word's Oldest/ Best/ Most Popular Roleplaying game."

I'm sure not actually mentioning "D&D" but just using the same rules and being sold alongside the D&D books will placate upset parents, who are always the most rational individuals in society.
 

mamba

Hero
Yeah, of the people who cancelled DDB (which was 5 digits and closer to 50k according to reports, which is still less than a percentage point of DDB's subscribers let alone D&D players) only a minority will not forgive.
That is an old number, no idea what happened since though. We will see who will be back, we will see whether more leave, this is still a developing story. Not cancelling a free account is also not a strong indication that you are in agreement with WotC. I basically have mine for the playtest and the free monster manuals for example.

But this bugs me because it's dominating the conversation and drowning out all the reasonable discussion and voices. All the actual feedback for the new license is being shouted down.
by who? and How do you define 'actual feedback'. You fill out the survey, that will be the actual feedback.

The OGL 1.0a is going away. We need to get over ourselves and bruised egos and accept this.
Don't think you ever cared, and I certainly can decide for myself what I am ok with and what not. What I do not need is people bending over backwards to please WotC, and you are very close to that.

And if we actually care about 3rd Party Publishers like we claim, work to make the new license as good as possible.
I am trying that, believe me. Whether that means it will be acceptable or not remains to be seen

And forgive WotC and let go of this anger.
no, they have not earned my forgiveness yet

Because a healthy WotC and strong D&D helps 3PP.
A strong market of alternative RPGs also helps 3PPs. I do not have to stick to WotC for that. In fact at this time I prefer not to just out of principle, so am definitely looking at what is happening with ORC.

If D&D takes a nose dive and the audience splits into four or five different games and editions, it will also quarter sales for those 3rd Party Publishers.
per edition, but more importantly it will hit WotC fully, because they will not be making money off the other four. Sounds like the perfect outcome to me

Assuming they can even make content for those games: there are quite a lot of popular games that have no Open Gaming license or 3rd Party support.
The ORC is fixing that
 



FormerLurker

Adventurer
Stop trying to tell people what they can or cannot do.
Do as I say, not as I do?
Also stop with this false dichotomy. People can boycott WotC by not purchasing anything from WotC/Hasbro unless they stop pursuing this course of action AND still play 5e witheir exising books and with 3PP material. It's not hard to do, in fact.
Which is fine. As long as you don't support the game in any way and don't bring new players into the hobby and don't buy any licensed or supporting material like dice and miniatures. Or replacements for damaged books. Or visiting their websites. Even buying 3PP for the game is effectively advertising the game by proxy. Oh, and of course don't raise brand awareness by talking about it online.
Oops. Too late.

Regardless, it's deeply hypocritical to boycott a company while still using their products.
Accepting it wouldn't have brought the change so far from the 1.1 to the 1.2. Accepting it won't bring further change.
Responding to the survey will bring future change. This is where "not accepting it" ends.
 

mamba

Hero
And it just hurts the hobby as there's no standard entry point.
Sounds like that is hurting WotC to me

It's hard enough finding a good new player for your D&D table, let alone finding someone to play Fantasy Age or Numenera or Shadow of the Demon Lord. Fracturing the community into a half-dozen competing minor games means more spread out gamers and increased difficulty in finding games. Which discourages people from playing, shrinking the industry.
Having trouble finding alternative RPGs might be changing as we speak...
 

The ORC is fixing that
The problem with the ORC is that we can't get orphaned works out of the old OGC commons without WotC being involved. It would have to be done through the ORC being an "update" to the OGL, which is a power that WotC actually holds.

If WotC transferred their copyright and their right to update the OGL over to this non-profit foundation that's being set up for the purpose (or an existing foundation that can be trusted to serve as a custodian), that would probably be the best solution.
 



mamba

Hero
WotC could destroy most 3PP for a variety of reasons without even trying. Kobold Press once released a book that heavily plagiarized the Dungeon Master's Guide. WotC could have destroyed them. But they didn't. Because the D&D team was friends with the head Kobold and knew it was an accident, and Kobold Press corrected the error.
This is just baseless fear mongering.
are you sure that would be the same outcome if it happened today?
 

mamba

Hero
There is an OGL 1.0a they can release it under because it cannot be revoked or "deauthorized". Hopefully, that will come out in a presentation before a court with a jury.
it is already released under 1.0a, and in WotC's scenario that would not exist anyway, so no, there is no 1.0a to release it under, no matter how you slice this ;)
 

mamba

Hero
Why do they care?
It's either because they're not monsters who want to make people happy or they want to make as much money as possible and don't want to lose customers. Pick the option that fits your level of cynicism.
I pick the option that fits their behavior, how about that...
 

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