OGL OGL 1.2 survey is now live

[mamba]

Focus on the aspect of the fight you can win. Make the 1.2 OGL excellent. The fight over the 1.0a is already over.

That is Orwellian Newspeak

 

[Azzy]

Do as I say, not as I do?

Oh, yes, because that's totally the same.

Which is fine. As long as you don't support the game in any way and don't bring new players into the hobby and don't buy any licensed or supporting material like dice and miniatures. Or replacements for damaged books. Or visiting their websites. Even buying 3PP for the game is effectively advertising the game by proxy. Oh, and of course don't raise brand awareness by talking about it online.
Oops. Too late.

Your conclusions are asinine at best.

Regardless, it's deeply hypocritical to boycott a company while still using their products.

No, not really. I'm not giving them money, that's what it's all about.

Responding to the survey will bring future change. This is where "not accepting it" ends.

Only responding to the survey isn't enough, though. WotC needs pressure on them from other angles as well.

 

[Justice and Rule]

That is Orwellian Newspeak

YOU MUST TRUST FRIEND WIZARD
FRIEND WIZARD KNOWS BEST
DO NOT TRUST ORC
THE BEST OGL IS ONLY OGL
IS WIZARD OGL

 

[FormerLurker]

That is an old number, no idea what happened since though. We will see who will be back, we will see whether more leave, this is still a developing story. Not cancelling a free account is also not a strong indication that you are in agreement with WotC. I basically have mine for the playtest and the free monster manuals for example.

A free account can be cancelled. But anyone that has bought any books might be less likely to cancel.
And, really, if it includes free accounts and non-subscribers that actually makes the 50k figure less impressive, as it draws from the pool of 10 million-plus users and not the much smaller pool of subscribers. And cancelling a free account means WotC hasn't lost any money.

by who? and How do you define 'actual feedback'. You fill out the survey, that will be the actual feedback.

Yes. It would. And if we'd been coordinating and actually working on the issue here instead of kvetching, we could have outlined a half-dozen key points and all posted them to the survey in an organized fashion. We could have identified more problems in the license beyond "deauthorizing."
Instead, the responses from posters here will be a handful of "keep the OGL 1.0s" results that will be discarded.

Don't think you ever cared, and I certainly can decide for myself what I am ok with and what not. What I do not need is people bending over backwards to please WotC, and you are very close to that.

I haven't posted here in over a year and returned explicitly to call out the leaks are horrible and atrocious. To add my voice to the angry calls for WotC to do something, as I cancelled my DDB subscription and also planned to delist my DMsGuild products should WotC not favorably respond.
Now, I'm grimly accepting things. I don't want to let the perfect get in the way of the good. The OGL 1.0a is as good as gone, but we can at least make the 1.2 better and support 3PP. Work towards the least bad outcome, or even an "acceptable" outcome.

A strong market of alternative RPGs also helps 3PPs. I do not have to stick to WotC for that. In fact at this time I prefer not to just out of principle, so am definitely looking at what is happening with ORC.

Yes and no. The alternative market is nice, but the numbers are too small to support many 3PP. Even Pathfinder 2 doesn't have the player numbers for many 3PP.

per edition, but more importantly it will hit WotC fully, because they will not be making money off the other four. Sounds like the perfect outcome to me

Sounds like an end to 3rd Party Products to me, as they can no longer sell enough copies to offset expenses.
For example, Kobold Press' Wastes of Chaos Kickstarter: Wastes of Chaos: Enter the 5E Borderlands
$212,559 pledged of $50,000 goal. If it was for a system with a quarter as many players, that'd be a quarter of as many backers, or maybe $53,140. Just barely funded. No stretch goals. No buffer or extra money. Maybe no profit. Instead of running a 3PP as a business and being self-employed it would just be a hobby people do on the weekend.

The ORC is fixing that

Maybe.
Any licensed game won't be part of ORC. Big names like Free League and Modiphius and Reengage aren't involved. Really, ORC seems to be a bunch of micro-publishers and OGL publishers who will just keep doing what they were previously doing.
I don't see many of the top games being Open. If they didn't share their rules with the OGL or Creative Commons, they won't with ORC.

 

[raniE]

I’m not sure what would be sadder here, if this person actually believes this stuff and is just deluded, or if they’re being paid by Hasbro to go out on forums and try to convince people that this is already over actually and nothing you can do will have an effect, but also don’t try to have an effect because that would actually be bad.

The idea that I only need to care about the OGL if I still play current D&D when many games are tied to the OGL is also incredibly dumb.

 

[FormerLurker]

That is Orwellian Newspeak

"Someone disagrees with me! They must be fascist!"

 

[FormerLurker]

are you sure that would be the same outcome if it happened today?

Yes. Because WotC is significantly larger and even less likely to notice a small PDF of races.

 

[FormerLurker]

that was because D&D is such a large part of it, not because the others shrank...

It was both. D&D shed players and there was fewer people coming in. The hobby was aging and dying.

 

[Aspirinsmurf]

Instead, the responses from posters here will be a handful of "keep the OGL 1.0s" results that will be discarded.

Or held up by pro-OGL 1.0 voices inside the organization as emphatic votes against any change, lending greater weight to their arguments. You don't know. I don't know. We don't know.

 

[mamba]

It's not really a "boycott" if you're still playing the game and attracting new players to that game.

That's like boycotting McDonalds but still eating at the restaurant if someone else pays.

Why do you have the urge to tell everyone what they should do, including how they should protest what you want them to do in the first place...

Everyone is free to boycott however they feel like. If a table continues to play 5e and buy 3pp books but nothing from WotC, that does the important part, it cuts WotC off. If they move to another game instead, even better, but they are allies either way. The only ones who are not are guys like you who say we have to swallow whatever WotC is dishing out, for some greater good that seems to boil down to WotC's profit when you take a closer look.

 

[raniE]

Or held up by pro-OGL 1.0 voices inside the organization as emphatic votes against any change, lending greater weight to their arguments. You don't know. I don't know. We don't know.

I’m pretty sure that while @FormerLurker doesn’t know, they’re very afraid that it may have an effect, and they really don’t seem to want that.

 

[mamba]

Every year, new kids become old enough to watch Stranger Things or Critical Role for the first time. And WotC is working hard to attract new young players to the "brand" hoping they'll eventually start playing, with and multiple books aimed at young readers (1 2 3 4).

just like the local pusher handing out the first hit, and much with the same goal

Which is probably why they want to push the 1.2 OGL so hard. They want to be this family friendly game that attracts young teens to the game, and don't want that jeopardized by offensive or needlessly adult products with "D&D compatible" slapped on the front.

because they have such a hard time doing that today...

 

[FormerLurker]

I’m pretty sure that while @FormerLurker doesn’t know, they’re very afraid that it may have an effect, and they really don’t seem to want that.

Don't hold your breath for an effect...

I'd love for the OGL 1.0a to stay. But wishes don't accomplish anything.

 

[raniE]

Don't hold your breath for an effect...

I'd love for the OGL 1.0a to stay. But wishes don't accomplish anything.

Go back to lurking.

 

[Aspirinsmurf]

Don't hold your breath for an effect...

I'd love for the OGL 1.0a to stay. But wishes don't accomplish anything.

How's the weather like in Renton?

 

[FormerLurker]

Why do you have the urge to tell everyone what they should do, including how they should protest what you want them to do in the first place...

Everyone is free to boycott however they feel like. If a table continues to play 5e and buy 3pp books but nothing from WotC, that does the import part, it cuts WotC off. If they move to another game instead, even better, but they are allies either way. The only ones who are not are guys like you who say we have to swallow whatever WotC is dishing out for some greater good that seems to boils down to WotC's profit when you take a closer look.

I dunno. Because it would be nice if everyone did something productive? If we all worked to make a difference instead of infighting? If instead of meaningless gestures that WotC won't notice we focused on the issues we actually could influence. Because all the most passionate people here are just sitting around in verbal circle jerk wasting everyone's time?

 

[mamba]

The problem with the ORC is that we can't get orphaned works out of the old OGC commons without WotC being involved. It would have to be done through the ORC being an "update" to the OGL, which is a power that WotC actually holds.

If WotC transferred their copyright and their right to update the OGL over to this non-profit foundation that's being set up for the purpose (or an existing foundation that can be trusted to serve as a custodian), that would probably be the best solution.

agreed, but that is outside anyone's control but WotC's

 

[FormerLurker]

Go back to lurking.

Done

 

[Aspirinsmurf]

I dunno. Because it would be nice if everyone did something productive? If we all worked to make a difference instead of infighting? If instead of meaningless gestures that WotC won't notice we focused on the issues we actually could influence. Because all the most passionate people here are just sitting around in verbal circle jerk wasting everyone's time?

You're free to leave this conversation if you think it's a waste of your time.

 

[mamba]

A free account can be cancelled. But anyone that has bought any books might be less likely to cancel.
And, really, if it includes free accounts and non-subscribers that actually makes the 50k figure less impressive, as it draws from the pool of 10 million-plus users and not the much smaller pool of subscribers. And cancelling a free account means WotC hasn't lost any money.

sounds like no one knows whether the 50k is cancelling the subscriptions or having their account deleted, and even if we knew that, we still would not know what the other number is, let alone what both numbers are by now, they could easily have doubled or tripled, the story certainly kept on spreading. So all of this 'math' of yours is pointless.

The one thing we do know however is that this is what got WotC to look up, so that number is not as negligible as you would want us to believe

Yes. It would. And if we'd been coordinating and actually working on the issue here instead of kvetching, we could have outlined a half-dozen key points and all posted them to the survey in an organized fashion. We could have identified more problems in the license beyond "deauthorizing."

not sure who the 'we' here is, but this is what the people here have been doing, did not see you ever contributing to that discussion though... so 'we' were doing it, while you told us how futile it is

I haven't posted here in over a year and returned explicitly to call out the leaks are horrible and atrocious.

because they besmirch WotC's good image, no doubt

Now, I'm grimly accepting things.

looks more like happily embracing from where I stand

I don't want to let the perfect get in the way of the good.

we do not have 'good' yet

Sounds like an end to 3rd Party Products to me, as they can no longer sell enough copies to offset expenses.
For example, Kobold Press' Wastes of Chaos Kickstarter: Wastes of Chaos: Enter the 5E Borderlands
$212,559 pledged of $50,000 goal. If it was for a system with a quarter as many players, that'd be a quarter of as many backers,

yeah, but your math is off. Do one KS for all systems (minus WotC's), 90% of the stuff can stay the same, and the monsters and items you do for each in a separate booklet, or just include them all. Plenty of material is not released for a single game already. This approach would increase, WotC is out in the cold, sounds like a great outcome to me