Why We Should Work With WotC

[FormerLurker]

I disagree. This isn't my goal at all.

And your goal is???

But here's the difference between our positions. My position is fairly and equitably in solidarity with yours, whatever your interests are going forward. By that I mean we would both achieve what we wanted if OGL 1.0a was the line in the sand. Your position, however, is letting the adversary frame the discussion and invites attempts to divide and conquer. And you fail to even mention VTTs or video games, for example.

My position is that we can't move forward by looking backwards. WotC isn't going to change their mind on the OGL 1.0a. Nothing that's been said over the last month or fortnight or week seems to have budged them. It's a non-starter.
So rather than setting myself up to lose by focusing on the one thing that won't change, I want to focus on what changes I can make. Dwelling on what can't be changed and is inevitable is just setting oneself up for disappointment.

And you fail to even mention VTTs or video games, for example.

I wrote this on Thursday expecting the announcement on Friday, but WotC released early. I didn't choose to only do minor edits.
The VTT I talk about elsewhere. That's a different issue and that policy is some straight up BS.
And video games were never part of the original OGL anyway. Even Pathfinder's video game efforts radically change the rules.

 

[Remathilis]

So we can either struggle endlessly against an unwinnable battle, wasting our time and effort on a hopeless fight.
Or we can work with them and make the final product better, winning the war.

This is my take.

WotC has announced their biggest goal is control over what is attached, even peripherally, to the D&D brand. Royalties, claiming IP, none of that was as important as having the power to control what is considered "D&D compatible". WotC wants to avoid some potentially controversial product proudly displaying "Compatible with Dungeons & Dragons" and them having no recourse. They are doing their very best to move the game from "Satanic Panic of the 80's" to "quirky storytelling game of Let's Pretend" and sell it to teens and parents who watched Stranger Things and think Chris Pine is dreamy. They don't want some Hard R product muddying that water.

You can see it in there licencing model: the closer the game looks to D&D, the more control they have. The CC stuff is as broad as can be; you can make an RPG with it, but not really a D&D-looking one. The lack of races, classes, spells, and monsters (you know, the stuff that people associate with the game) is done to stop another Pathfinder game taking all their game elements and making a clone. If you want access to all those game elements; you have to agree to WotC's content moderation (which looks like the standard is "don't make us look bad"). Need D&D's actual IP? DM's Guild gives you the actual ability to use it, but with even tighter restrictions (and some revenue to boot).

So, like you, I believe the fight to keep 1.0a is a bit of lost cause. I don't know what the WotC "nuclear option" (deauthorize 1.0a and replace it with... nothing?) but I have a hard time believing there is any path forward that ends with 1.0a surviving. WotC right now is negotiating what it would take to get enough people to accept its demise and replacement. Fight for 1.0a, but if WotC's hard stance is no, then the fight must be on making 1.2 the best it can be for us. We still have the ability to mold 1.2 farther in our favor. If the line is 1.0a or death, we're getting death. If the line is 1.2 but we demand further concessions, we have a good chance of getting those.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

But what is "good" about an OGL that they can basically unilaterally destroy at any given moment? Or to attempt to destroy or artificially handicap the VTT community?

Like, what is actually being gained here? They've conceded nothing because they've created an OGL they can smash at any given time. We aren't gaining anything if they can take it away with no way of stopping them.

 

[Aspirinsmurf]

And video games were never part of the original OGL anyway.

You’re mistaken. Wizards have made specific representations about that in the past. And who knows what cool CRPGs we could get from indie studios with the OGL 1.0(a) going forward?

Q: I want to distribute computer software using the OGL. Is that possible?

A: Yes, it's certainly possible. The most significant thing that will impact your effort is that you have to give all the recipients the right to extract and use any Open Game Content you've included in your application, and you have to clearly identify what part of the software is Open Game Content.

One way is to design your application so that all the Open Game Content resides in files that are human-readable (that is, in a format that can be opened and understood by a reasonable person). Another is to have all the data used by the program viewable somehow while the program runs.

Distributing the source code not an acceptable method of compliance. First off, most programming languages are not easy to understand if the user hasn't studied the language. Second, the source code is a separate entity from the executable file. The user must have access to the actual Open Content used.

Open Game License:Frequently Asked Questions

Open Game License: Frequently Asked Questions -- Version 2.0 -- January 26, 2004

web.archive.org

 

[Remathilis]

But what is "good" about an OGL that they can basically unilaterally destroy at any given moment? Or to attempt to destroy or artificially handicap the VTT community?

Like, what is actually being gained here? They've conceded nothing because they've created an OGL they can smash at any given time. We aren't gaining anything if they can take it away with no way of stopping them.

Then the fight it to plug those loopholes. To make it harder for WotC to end it without some protections.

WotC has already lost the biggest fight; ORC is going to do what the OGL has done for years. There will be pain in the transition, but it's going to replace OGL as the license of choice for many publishers. OGL is going to end up like GSL; a D&D specific license. What we have to do is make sure that we can get WotC to give up as many concessions as it thinks it needs to protect its brand while everyone not directly making D&D-related stuff moves to ORC.

 

[Aspirinsmurf]

This is my take.

WotC has announced their biggest goal is control over what is attached, even peripherally, to the D&D brand. Royalties, claiming IP, none of that was as important as having the power to control what is considered "D&D compatible". WotC wants to avoid some potentially controversial product proudly displaying "Compatible with Dungeons & Dragons" and them having no recourse. They are doing their very best to move the game from "Satanic Panic of the 80's" to "quirky storytelling game of Let's Pretend" and sell it to teens and parents who watched Stranger Things and think Chris Pine is dreamy. They don't want some Hard R product muddying that water.

You can see it in there licencing model: the closer the game looks to D&D, the more control they have. The CC stuff is as broad as can be; you can make an RPG with it, but not really a D&D-looking one. The lack of races, classes, spells, and monsters (you know, the stuff that people associate with the game) is done to stop another Pathfinder game taking all their game elements and making a clone. If you want access to all those game elements; you have to agree to WotC's content moderation (which looks like the standard is "don't make us look bad"). Need D&D's actual IP? DM's Guild gives you the actual ability to use it, but with even tighter restrictions (and some revenue to boot).

So, like you, I believe the fight to keep 1.0a is a bit of lost cause. I don't know what the WotC "nuclear option" (deauthorize 1.0a and replace it with... nothing?) but I have a hard time believing there is any path forward that ends with 1.0a surviving. WotC right now is negotiating what it would take to get enough people to accept its demise and replacement. Fight for 1.0a, but if WotC's hard stance is no, then the fight must be on making 1.2 the best it can be for us. We still have the ability to mold 1.2 farther in our favor. If the line is 1.0a or death, we're getting death. If the line is 1.2 but we demand further concessions, we have a good chance of getting those.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

If these are their actual goals, I think a D&D compatibility license with an official-looking Badge of Approval is the way to go. Even the CCA didn't actually ban non-compliant works by threat of lawsuit, forcing publishers to pulp their comics. The distributors that were part of the association simply refused to distribute non-compliant material.

There's no need to go nuclear to achieve this.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Then the fight it to plug those loopholes. To make it harder for WotC to end it without some protections.

I think the problem with this is that the loopholes are the point. They'll give up anything else, but they want the ability to blow it all up and create new, better terms for themselves. That's a feature, not a bug. Just look at their defense of the morality clause; that's not going away. They want that in there because it gives them carte blanche to do what they want with anyone who signs up.

At the end of the day I would love to have some good-faith compromise with Wizards, but they have not shown themselves to be good-faith actors, and everything they've done has avoided what they need to do to start reestablishing the trust they lost. Until then, there's just very little point in reengaging.

WotC has already lost the biggest fight; ORC is going to do what the OGL has done for years. There will be pain in the transition, but it's going to replace OGL as the license of choice for many publishers. OGL is going to end up like GSL; a D&D specific license. What we have to do is make sure that we can get WotC to give up as many concessions as it thinks it needs to protect its brand while everyone not directly making D&D-related stuff moves to ORC.

It's not lost the biggest fight, necessarily: that's over 1.0a. But this part of the affair has definitely backfired. The whole thing being done in a clandestine manner to try and intimidate content creators into signing 1.1 really cements what they've been trying to do for a little while.

 

[Justice and Rule]

If these are their actual goals, I think a D&D compatibility license with an official-looking Badge of Approval is the way to go. Even the CCA didn't actually ban non-compliant works by threat of lawsuit, forcing publishers to pulp their comics. The distributors that were part of the association simply refused to distribute non-compliant material.

There's no need to go nuclear to achieve this.

Unless, of course, going nuclear is the point.

 

[BlueFin]

taco pizza?

Yeah, like that’s an acceptable compromise. Rather, it’s a mess noone would enjoy … like the OGL 1.2 and it’s variations. (Remember wotc is this analogy is the pizza company, they’re not at the table eating the crap pizza. They got the money for the pizza and that’s all they care about)

 

[Justice and Rule]

Yeah, like that’s an acceptable compromise. Rather, it’s a mess noone would enjoy … like the OGL 1.2 and it’s variations. (Remember wotc is this analogy is the pizza company, they’re not at the table eating the crap pizza. They got the money for the pizza and that’s all the care about)