D&D (2024) Change in Charisma Description

[Scribe]

Bu

But to what end?

So I can make a character, supported by the rules, who has a sky high charisma, because I'm an Adonis, so handsome, the gods themselves blush in my presence.

 

[Lanefan]

Elves, who do not automatically receive any bonus to Charisma, nor are made to have a minimum Charisma "appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races".

And that's a big hole in the rules. Elves should have a minimum Charisma - or better yet, the Elvish bell-curve for Charisma should go from something like 6-19 instead of the Humans' 3-18. The bonus would then follow from their having on average a higher Cha score.

Note also that Elves receive no real benefit to their "haunting beauty" in game. Not a word is said about them gaining advantage on Charisma checks due to it. It's certainly not a racial trait. Further, the PHB also tells us "Elves are slow to make friends", and "reply to petty insults with disdain and serious insults with vengeance". Oh and they're also "haughty".

While I'll grant there are mitigating traits to accompany these, the truth is, I don't particularly find those traits all that Charismatic. Charisma and appearance are not linked by the rules, and to link them would require far more revisions to the game than a single word in the ability score description.

I'm not so sure about that last statement. The only 'revision' needed, other than adding a couple of words to the Charisma write-up, would be to general player perception of what elements go into making up one's Cha score.

 

[Maxperson]

No. I want my scar faced pirate captain that looks fugly, but has a commanding presence over his crew. I want a very attractive PC who just happens to not be very confident and is often lost in the crowd.

You have a hard time wrapping your head around the beauty part because its not actually the beauty. ITs the person using their charisma to accentuate it.

This. Just bring comeliness back and give it a bonus from high charisma.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Bu

But to what end?

So that people have more options for what can go into Charisma, and for those (like me) who prefer a little more verisimilitude. Nothing is removed by this, so I don't see why people are against it in a game. If you think attractiveness can't have anything to do with Charisma, ignore that word on the list.

 

[Bedrockgames]

This is also how I approach it, and why I generally don't think of looks as factor of that in my games. I would say the vast majority of situations where a Charisma modifier comes up, attractiveness, without even getting in to how personally variable that assessment is, doesn't really have a bearing. It's really just persuasion, and maybe deception. The one that really makes me throw it out is the idea of Charisma Saving Throws. Those resistances, like Banishment, Calm Emotions, Zone of Truth are all about exerting your will over your own being, and maintaining your sense of self. It just doesn't work for my brain to have beauty affect that.

I generally allow it as a factor when it feels right for an NPC or when it is an important part of a players character. But like so many have pointed out, charisma is way more than how you look (and even when it is about how you look that spans such a huge gamut of things----it really just seems to mean you have 'something' whether that is beauty, a gentle resting expression, a look of determination in the face of the horrors of war). And it can also be about how you sound: having a particularly moving speaking voice, for example or having a weathered voice that lends credibility to your statements.

The way I look at it is I try to think of the people I think of in the real world who I would say are Charismatic. If you look at historical figures, politicians, celebrities, many of them aren't what most would call attractive (many are, but many are also just interesting looking or have a look that engenders trust and relatability).

I do like your last sentence though, in slight contradiction to that.

Thanks. I think these kinds of things are important (and probably more the domain of ad hoc bonuses and rulings). But I think Something that is often regarded as an asset (i.e. physical beauty) is going to be a disadvantage in some circumstances. Comedy is a good example of this. It is common to hear comedians say that being attractive is actually a negative for a comedian. I tend to agree because I have noticed people who are fit and good looking don't make me laugh as readily as other comedians (and most of the comedians who do make me laugh, usually have something quirky and memorable about their appearance, but not something I would say is physical beauty). Obviously good looking people can be funny. And they can be successful comedians. But people don't have the expectation of laughing at jokes when they see someone who is handsome or beautiful appear on stage, the way they might if they see someone who looks more like a Larry David or something. So it would be a bit of an uphill climb.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And that's a big hole in the rules. Elves should have a minimum Charisma

Unless people read the Complete book of Elves and realize beauty isn't even skin deep and they're mostly scumbags.

 

[Cadence]

And that's a big hole in the rules. Elves should have a minimum Charisma - or better yet, the Elvish bell-curve for Charisma should go from something like 6-19 instead of the Humans' 3-18. The bonus would then follow from their having on average a higher Cha score.

"appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races".

They're good at Persuasion for certain races, but not particularly Deception, Intimidation, Performance, or spells that rely on CHR. So it doesn't feel to me based on that description they deserve a higher CHR. And if they do, then the fluff should justify those other things?

 

[Cadence]

Unless people read the Complete book of Elves and realize beauty isn't even skin deep and they're mostly scumbags.

I mean, it is "Murder Hobo, the Game".

 

[James Gasik]

"appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races".

They're good at Persuasion for certain races, but not particularly Deception, Intimidation, Performance, or spells that rely on CHR. So it doesn't feel to me based on that description they deserve a higher CHR. And if they do, then the fluff should justify those other things?

Well some kinds of Performance, at least. All that Dex comes in handy.

 

[Clint_L]

The premise of the thread is literally not requiring you to do such.

"please hear me out: Charisma should include beauty."

That's the third sentence of the first post.

I do not want beauty even mentioned with charisma, for all the reasons I have given. Stick with the status quo, which is working fine. Character attractiveness is part of character creation along with height, weight, ect., and that's where it belongs. Totally in the player's hands.