D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era. I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to...
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In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.
 

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Scribe

Legend
Current WotC has proven pretty consistently theme-blind. It’s likely they don’t even recognize the positive messaging in the setting’s themes. They just see “edgy grimdark setting with slavery, Twitter will get mad if we publish it.”

Ya know, I agree with this completely, but I had to delete just HOW completely, multiple times to avoid punishment.

Wizards is embarrassing at this point.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Current WotC has proven pretty consistently theme-blind. It’s likely they don’t even recognize the positive messaging in the setting’s themes. They just see “edgy grimdark setting with slavery, Twitter will get mad if we publish it.”
I think its more they themselves don't know how to do itwithout either ruining the setting, causing an uproar, or having not enough meat in the book to make money.

And quite frankly, I doubt most 3PP or fans could.

I mean we can't even get psionics done and that is the easy part.
 

squibbles

Adventurer
[...] Ish? I'm eager for more Dark Sun art, modules, text, lore, etc as I absolutely love the setting. But I know that WotC, especially in its current iteration and dealing with the...environment...we live in, would step on every single possible social landmine that existed. So that would be bad. Plus they'd gut the setting to try to avoid that very problem, which is also bad. So half the problem is WotC being inept. The other half of the problem is people being generally terrible. Only one of those is likely to change in the next 1000 years.
I don't get the strain of fandom (generally, not just with Dark Sun) that dislikes when existing IP is revisited, reinvented, and/or recontextualized. Sometimes (a lot of times) it goes horribly wrong. But I am so glad that, for example, that I got the Rings of Power instead of nothing, or the Star Wars sequel trilogy instead of nothing. And I am pleased as hell when a revisited IP is genuinely great like, say, Andor.

What does a gutted Dark Sun setting cause you to lose? Surely it would have at least some good nuggets of setting detail and workable defiling rules, right? Even the ill advised Red Dawn ripoff of it looked like it was gonna have a couple of cool city states. In this case as in others, I would have preferred something to nothing.

Not to dogpile on the pushback you've gotten in this thread, I realize people's preferences differ. Let me, I guess, concur with you that I love the setting and would very much like to see it done well.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I don't get the strain of fandom (generally, not just with Dark Sun) that dislikes when existing IP is revisited, reinvented, and/or recontextualized. Sometimes (a lot of times) it goes horribly wrong. But I am so glad that, for example, that I got the Rings of Power instead of nothing, or the Star Wars sequel trilogy instead of nothing. And I am pleased as hell when a revisited IP is genuinely great like, say, Andor.

What does a gutted Dark Sun setting cause you to lose? Surely it would have at least some good nuggets of setting detail and workable defiling rules, right? Even the ill advised Red Dawn ripoff of it looked like it was gonna have a couple of cool city states. In this case as in others, I would have preferred something to nothing.

Not to dogpile on the pushback you've gotten in this thread, I realize people's preferences differ. Let me, I guess, concur with you that I love the setting and would very much like to see it done well.

I actually prefer nothing over badly done screw up.

Onlyvway they could do a somewhat faithful darksun is label it R26 or 18 maybe something like Mad Max not to long ago.

And dial up the PCs are the tinal hope aspect of it. D&Ds best setting sigh.
 

I think its more they themselves don't know how to do itwithout either ruining the setting, causing an uproar, or having not enough meat in the book to make money.

And quite frankly, I doubt most 3PP or fans could.

I just wish I could believe they genuinely tried. Though i'm still a bit steamed about how they tried to offhandedly murder Athas as a oh-so-funny Easter egg in Spelljammer, so I'm not terribly inclined to be charitable to WotC on the topic, I have to admit.

I could think of a number of possible ways to address the issue.

First is the Dragonlance strategy. How did the SotDQ writers address the problematic issues around the Cataclysm, or the gully dwarves? How did the Spelljammer writers deal with the problematic issues around the Unhuman Wars, or the slave-centric culture of the neogi? They ... just didn't. They made the product an adventure, and the problematic elements to the setting simply weren't present due to the location and plot they chose for the adventure. You could easily take the same strategy in Athas. Have the campaign start in post-Kalak Tyr where slavery has been abolished, and have the campaign bad guys be Dregoth in Guistenal, or ancient dwarven undead in the ruins of old Kemalok, or psurlon cults, or evil defiler nobles trying to take over where Kalak left off, or some monstrous leftover war-engine of the Cleansing Wars that has woken up again now Kalak isn't around to keep it locked away, or something similar. By restricting the campaign to these largely-non-slavery topics and areas (which are also, conveniently, largely areas where PC templars are not suited either), you could avoid the issue almost completely if you felt so inclined - and that would certainly fit the strategy of deliberate and not-un-cowardly avoidance that WotC has embraced on such matters so far.

Second is a complete retcon, a bit like the retcon they pulled on female Solamnic knights. There's no widespread slavery in Athas, there's never been widespread slavery in Athas. Instead of slaves, the gladiatorial arenas are filled with a small number of professionals or volunteers, a large number of criminals condemned to execution, and a few desperate individuals who seek a big payday for something risky, or who have sought to enter the city and by the sorcerer-kings laws must first perform a service to the city, and some jerk templar has assigned them to the arena for this purpose (plus, this makes it easier to get PCs into arena fights without having to enslave them first!). The Dragon's Tithe is routinely filled with condemned criminals and captured prisoners of war (which gives us a reason for city-states to wage war on one another). The uprising that killed Kalak was sparked by him trying to institute slavery, to help speed the construction of his ziggurat. It'd annoy a lot of people, but you could do it with surprising ease, and it'd be pretty simple to put slavery back in for your home table if you felt so inclined.

Thirdly is a serious evaluation of how slavery fits in the setting, how it operates, and the various reactions to it, and a rewrite of the setting accordingly. Have a major movement or society seeking to abolish slavery (and make it orthogonal to the Veiled Alliance, there should be escaped slaves who hate slavery but who defile, and also comfortable slave-owning nobles who are secretly Veiled Alliance members). Examine how slavery fits in the different cultures of the city-states. Gulg, for instance, may well have abolished it completely. The Oba knows her city is small and has limited space to expand in population without exhausting its resources, and she thinks it'd be foolish to bring into the city a class of people who hate the society they live in and will enthusiastically collaborate with any hostile outsiders if it means they could possibly escape. Hamanu probably allows slavery (permanent or time-limited) as a judicial punishment rather than a chattel-based economic slave trade, but his law code would protect slaves as well as free on the grounds that Uriks people are its best resource and they should not be wasted unless he so chooses. Dregoth probably doesn't have slavery because he doesn't need it, all his dray are pretty much born into his cult in the first place. I've been watching a youtube series recently where a couple of Arabic gamers do a read of Al-Qadim, and they compliment how the wearing of the veil is discussed in the setting - by demonstrating how it has different forms in different places and fits differently into different cultures - that's the idea I'm trying to get at here.

There's ways to do it. I just think WotC in its current form is too risk-averse to seriously try any of them.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I just wish I could believe they genuinely tried. Though i'm still a bit steamed about how they tried to offhandedly murder Athas as a oh-so-funny Easter egg in Spelljammer, so I'm not terribly inclined to be charitable to WotC on the topic, I have to admit.

I could think of a number of possible ways to address the issue.

First is the Dragonlance strategy. How did the SotDQ writers address the problematic issues around the Cataclysm, or the gully dwarves? How did the Spelljammer writers deal with the problematic issues around the Unhuman Wars, or the slave-centric culture of the neogi? They ... just didn't. They made the product an adventure, and the problematic elements to the setting simply weren't present due to the location and plot they chose for the adventure. You could easily take the same strategy in Athas. Have the campaign start in post-Kalak Tyr where slavery has been abolished, and have the campaign bad guys be Dregoth in Guistenal, or ancient dwarven undead in the ruins of old Kemalok, or psurlon cults, or evil defiler nobles trying to take over where Kalak left off, or some monstrous leftover war-engine of the Cleansing Wars that has woken up again now Kalak isn't around to keep it locked away, or something similar. By restricting the campaign to these largely-non-slavery topics and areas (which are also, conveniently, largely areas where PC templars are not suited either), you could avoid the issue almost completely if you felt so inclined - and that would certainly fit the strategy of deliberate and not-un-cowardly avoidance that WotC has embraced on such matters so far.

Second is a complete retcon, a bit like the retcon they pulled on female Solamnic knights. There's no widespread slavery in Athas, there's never been widespread slavery in Athas. Instead of slaves, the gladiatorial arenas are filled with a small number of professionals or volunteers, a large number of criminals condemned to execution, and a few desperate individuals who seek a big payday for something risky, or who have sought to enter the city and by the sorcerer-kings laws must first perform a service to the city, and some jerk templar has assigned them to the arena for this purpose (plus, this makes it easier to get PCs into arena fights without having to enslave them first!). The Dragon's Tithe is routinely filled with condemned criminals and captured prisoners of war (which gives us a reason for city-states to wage war on one another). The uprising that killed Kalak was sparked by him trying to institute slavery, to help speed the construction of his ziggurat. It'd annoy a lot of people, but you could do it with surprising ease, and it'd be pretty simple to put slavery back in for your home table if you felt so inclined.

Thirdly is a serious evaluation of how slavery fits in the setting, how it operates, and the various reactions to it, and a rewrite of the setting accordingly. Have a major movement or society seeking to abolish slavery (and make it orthogonal to the Veiled Alliance, there should be escaped slaves who hate slavery but who defile, and also comfortable slave-owning nobles who are secretly Veiled Alliance members). Examine how slavery fits in the different cultures of the city-states. Gulg, for instance, may well have aboished it completely. The Oba knows her city is small and has limited space to expand in population without exhausting its resources, and she thinks it'd be foolish to bring into the city a class of people who hate the society they live in and will enthusiastically collaborate with anyone if it means they could possibly escape. Hamanu probably allows slavery (permanent or time-limited) as a judicial punishment rather than a chattel-based economic slave trade, but his law code would protect slaves as well as free on the grounds that Uriks people are its best resource and they should not be wasted unless he so chooses. Dregoth probably doesn't have slavery because he doesn't need it, all his dray are pretty much born into his cult in the first place. I've been watching a youtube series recently where a couple of Arabic gamers do a read of Al-Qadim, and they compliment how the wearing of the veil is discussed in the setting - by demonstrating how it has different forms in different places and fits differently into different cultures - that's the idea I'm trying to get at here.

There's ways to do it. I just think WotC in its current form is too risk-averse to seriously try any of them.
There's writing a Athas book that makes money without causing controversy.
There's writing a Dark Sun book that makes money without causing controversy

The first is easy.
The second is HARD

WOTC would have to cut out all the Dark Sun out of Athas to make it work.
 

delericho

Legend
Sadly, after the mess they made of Ravenloft and Spelljammer, I'm somewhat relieved to hear this. Dark Sun was the last of the classic settings I was interested in, but I didn't hold out much hope it would be good.

It would be nice to see it opened on the Guild, though - they're already selling the classic titles there, so the arguments against publishing there wouldn't seem to be as strong. But if they don't, that's not going to bother me either.
 

M_Natas

Hero
Specifically in regards to Dark Sun, no. It's a general thing that's happening everywhere. Works that depict a thing as bad are mistakenly seen as promoting the bad thing. That's absolutely a thing that's happening.
Often the writer/creator intends to depict a thing as bad but ends up promoting the bad thing.
Like Starship Troopers the Movie was satire, a warning of militarism and fascim in society. The military used to show it to recruits.
Unless the creater used very obvious signposts with "this thing is really bad", which is considered bad writing, even using caricatures of bad guys will promote their evil ideas to some people instead of warning them for it. I mean, there are even people, that argue that Thanos was right for God's sake!

(EDIT: corrected Thanos, was before Thanks)
 
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