D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.

 

[M_Natas]

I don't get the strain of fandom (generally, not just with Dark Sun) that dislikes when existing IP is revisited, reinvented, and/or recontextualized. Sometimes (a lot of times) it goes horribly wrong. But I am so glad that, for example, that I got the Rings of Power instead of nothing, or the Star Wars sequel trilogy instead of nothing. And I am pleased as hell when a revisited IP is genuinely great like, say, Andor.

What does a gutted Dark Sun setting cause you to lose? Surely it would have at least some good nuggets of setting detail and workable defiling rules, right? Even the ill advised Red Dawn ripoff of it looked like it was gonna have a couple of cool city states. In this case as in others, I would have preferred something to nothing.

Not to dogpile on the pushback you've gotten in this thread, I realize people's preferences differ. Let me, I guess, concur with you that I love the setting and would very much like to see it done well.

Because a recontextualization changes stuff. Like ... I hate every epiosde of a fantasy/scifi show where the toy with the Idea that the whole show was just a dream/hallucination/Illusion and nothing is real. What does that do? It just makes the whole show not matter.
And what comes later ruins the things before it. That's why the last season if Game if Thrones ruined the show for everybody and nobody talks about it anymore. That's why nobody is angry about Star Trek V or the Prequel Star Wars movies anymore but at NewTrek and the Star Wars Sequels.

There are several reasons why it can't be ignored:
1. If the new products are bad and successful, all the following products will continue to be bad, because they don't see a reason to change it, so the franchise I love will get more bad stuff thatbInwill not be able to enjoy.
2. If the new products are bad and unsuccessful, my franchise could die and I get no new products at all or have to why 15 years, before I get something new (like with Star Trek).
3. The new product will start to erase the consensus memory of the old stuff. Like, because of New Trek it is nearly impossible to find writing advice on the structure of "classical" Star Trek Episodes (TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy, Ent) ...
4. It takes a mental effort to ignore new bad stuff the moment you take knowledge of it. Like ... knowing that J.K.. Rolling is a transphobe makes it way harder to enjoy any Harry potter related content and
5. also I don't want to support evil people and don't want other to support evil people.
6. In RPGs its fragmentates the player base. It takes time and energy to convince people who maybe only know the new stuff to try the old stuff.
7. Public opinion ... like NewTrek is about crying people in spaceships who solve everything with big battles - that is what people, who didn't grow up with Star Trek now associate with it ... and you don't want to be attached to that kind of thing si you can't call yourself a Trekkie in public anymore or a Harry potter fan, because that would be a public statement in support of transphobia ...

I know it sounds silly, but new stuff for a franchise you like can literally ruin it for you.
In a social and cultural vacuum, new stuff shouldn't dimish the enjoyment if the old stuff you have, but we don't live in a social and cultural vacuum. It takes a lot of mental energy and willpower to just ignore new stuff that contradicts the old stuff.

To be fair, I think it is easier in RPGs tondonthat, because what matters is what happens at the table ... but just the outcry after the very disappointing spelljammer book shows, that people in general can't just ignore when bad stuff happens to their entertainment franchises..

 

[dave2008]

But making a Dark Sun that's uncontroversial? That's "inclusive" to climate change deniers and people who love billionaires? That's impossible.

I kind of doubt that this is the thing that is holding them up. If I had to guess, they just are not good at being culturally sensitive (which has been proven over and over again) and likely made the wise choice to hold off because they realized this. Maybe with their new sensitivity review process and upcoming standards document they can find the will to make it themselves or with a consultant(s).

 

[aco175]

Selfishly, I'm fine with them not making DS. I never liked the setting since the time we played I had a crab shell shield and a stone sword that I rolled a 1 and it broke. Throw in my dislike of psionics and I'm sold on never buying it. So now I hope they fill that release slot with something I would buy and play.

I do feel bad for the people that liked it and hope there is some sort of update for 5e on the classes and feats and such, maybe as a supplement.

 

[tetrasodium]

I don't think the climate change element needs to be changed at all. I think it's just a fear of appearing on cable news shows that would make WotC think otherwise.

The setting starts falling apart if the world itself isn't a climste hell scape because then civilization will do everything it can to dig itself out of the rubble before or after overthrowing the sorcerer kings as a result of constant revolutions. It's the fact that the people must endure the conditions in the walled cities for water and can't just go dig a well or whatever if they leave that keeps the hell scape-stasis in place.

If you've ever lived in an area hit by a huge natural disaster like a cat 5 Hurricane you know how downright bizarre the world around you gets for a bit but every little step towards normalcy is a bit of warmth in your heart. One day people are talking about how Walmart has generator trucks and somewhere along the way they cover how the somehow functioning stoplight nailed to a tree made them smile because it meant power was restored there to suddenly how they were so excited about getting stopped by the red light out front while turning into work because it was working. Civilization doesn't just collapse and eat itself like athas unless it can't rebuild.

 

[Cergorach]

Sadly, after the mess they made of Ravenloft and Spelljammer, I'm somewhat relieved to hear this. Dark Sun was the last of the classic settings I was interested in, but I didn't hold out much hope it would be good.

Why relieved? I agree, that the 5E settings books are a huge disappointment when looking from a 2E or 3E perspective. But let's be honest, the 4E stuff was already not great, the 5E stuff being even further off and having been dunked into the Cauldron of Blandness isn't surprising in the least.

But even if I'm not buying any 5E Spelljammer, that doesn't mean there are no people who actually enjoy it a lot and might not like the old stuff. There is a reason why WotC is using the Cauldron of Blandness, it works with a wider audience, and sells more as a result. So, do I like that direction? No, absolutely not! Are you or I going to change that? No, absolutely not!

That old stuff is still available for now, and still unedited (although some people are trying to change that, see other threads in this forum). So you can still play in that Spelljammer/Ravenloft/Dark Sun setting you love! Heck there are even people that have made fan versions of it for 5E. There's even datasets for certain VTTs available...

Personally I think Dark Sun is a great settings and all those controversial points are exactly why it is interesting. But that is also the reason why it isn't for everyone and WotC doesn't make products anymore that isn't for everyone.

 

[humble minion]

he setting starts falling apart if the world itself isn't a climste hell scape because then civilization will do everything it can to dig itself out of the rubble before or after overthrowing the sorcerer kings as a result of constant revolutions. It's the fact that the people must endure the conditions in the walled cities for water and can't just go dig a well or whatever if they leave that keeps the hell scape-stasis in place.

Well, the setting fell apart there a bit already because just to the west of the horrible harsh waterless tablelands where all the 'classic' Dark Sun setting centred around, you had a massive expanse of relatively fertile grassland. Why a couple of sorcerer-kings didn't just pack up their cities and leave, kicking out the resident kreen in the process, never really made sense.

Honestly though, I personally have real trouble comprehending that there might literally be a major, or even significant, backlash to the climate aspects of the setting. Does this really strike anyone as genuinely likely? Especially among WotCs largely sub-30yo target demographic? Have there been meaningful PR flareups in response to any other fictional media talking about climate change (and not even coal-driven climate change in this case - magic-driven climate change)?

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Dark Sun was not only the lore, but the look to get the best visual impact. This means a lot of work for artistic designers. A comic of Dark Sun was published, and it was the right vibes, but not the same look.

One of the main reasons is because the psionic powers aren't ready, but it is not only that, but also because a lot of "crunch" added in the last editions is not wellcome in DS. What if a player wants any special element? For example that class or PC race. There were "psiartificers" in 3.5 Eberron. Why not in DS? Or the psiforgeds. Could add ki martial adepts, or (incarnum soulmelder) totemist shamans?

It is not only about the slavery, but when DS was published, the Rule34 of internet hadn't arrived yet. I mean there is a serious risk DS being altered by a portion of the fandom to become "Gor with superpowers", and with a lot, too many, NSFW elements.

Gor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Other point is to choose between to continue or reboot the metaplot of the novels.

Any solution? My suspects is WotC is thinking about an event causing a reboot of the D&D Multiverse (with Vecna as suspect number one, but also Azalin Rex in the list), and this would be the excuse to explain all the possible retcons, for example the ardlings have been living in the world of Greyhawk for centuries.

My theory is we are going to see two DS, the "original" one, but as if it was an alternate timeline, and a second DS, a mixture of spin-off and spiritual succesor. Not in the same planet/world but maybe in the same crystal sphere/wildspace.

 

[wicked cool]

It’s not happening unless there’s a cultural shift and why should there be
You think there’s going to be slavers when the game has backed away from orcs being the bad guys and there’s no more rescue the princess. That’s old news
What’s really sad is many want the old stuff but basically those who want it can’t have it as it maybe considered offensive but yet there was no outcry when critical role had slaver encounters in their shows and doesn’t it exist in pathfinder universes.
I’m watching right now how much excitement Dragonlance has had on the miniature community. You can’t keep draconian son the store shelves as they sell out fast
There’s a hungry market for nostalgia

 

[OldOwlbear]

I am stunned at the absurdity of this decision. The setting is controversial because of climate change, class warfare, and institutionalized slavery? Guess what, those are real things. You can’t have a dramatic story without conflict, and the more relatable it is the more effective the story.

This kind of reasoning would make it impossible to write anything dystopian or to even make any fiction set in the actual ancient world. If people are offended by it they don’t have to buy it. Make different things for different people. Games Workshop has put out some of the darkest fiction out there with many of these issues and 40k is still doing fine.

I’m really not sure why I even try with WotC any more.

 

[mamba]

WOTC would have to cut out all the Dark Sun out of Athas to make it work.

not sure I agree with the premise, but at that point why have an Athas book at all and not call it something else