D&D General How would you redo 4e?

[Voadam]

I too miss my firecubes. No fuss, no muss, no "well the fireball only enters a fraction of this square so it has no effect on you".

That's how radius effects work in my 5e games.

 

[James Gasik]

That's how radius effects work in my 5e games.

I know it's blasphemy, but I hate counting diagonals as 1.5 spaces too.

 

[Voadam]

I know it's blasphemy, but I hate counting diagonals as 1.5 spaces too.

5e has an awful lot of RAW "the DM can . . ." which makes plugging in whatever rule or aspect of a rule from 4e or 3e fairly easy.

 

[Bacon Bits]

• Rename it to a different game. Even if it's got the D&D IP, don't call it D&D. Let it be D&D adjacent.
  • Heroes of the Forgotten Realms
  • Champions of Cormyr
  • Champions of Dark Sun
  • Or just reuse some existing names:
    • Heroes of the Fallen Lands
    • Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms
• I agree with the 5e Bounded Accuracy and Proficiency approach. The lockstep bonuses were not great, and made it feel like you have to min/max just to keep up.
• Also do the 5e magic item treatment. Keep the abilities, lose the scaling enhancement bonuses.
• Change HD progression. 13th Age's HD progression is much better. Heck AD&D's HD progression is better. Healing Surges are just fine, though. Don't use 5e HD.
• Drop levels 21+. Maybe even drop levels 16+. Maybe add them in much later, but they're a low priority. That cuts down the number of powers and monsters that you need to create by 30%-50% right out of the gate.
• Spend more time balancing and playtesting. The production schedule for 4e was absolutely breakneck.
• Stop with the chart-filling in lieu of design. Just because you have 8 power types and 4 class roles doesn't mean you need 32 classes.
• A better skill system. I'm not entirely sure what I'd do instead, but a game with combat as deep and interesting as 4e needs more from skills. And Skill Challenges are good, but they turn everything into a nail.

 

[dave2008]

You can find my old musings here:

D&D 4E - Changing the Combat Parameters of 4th Edition

Having read read DM David’s blog and playing 4th Edition and doing some 4th Edition conversions from 3.5 edition I have to agree with some of his statements. “In D&D next, a party can role-play, explore, and finish a few fights in a 2-hour session. In 4E, not a chance. At most, players can drop...

www.enworld.org

It plays really well. I have spent the last 2 years implementing many of the features into a 4.5 Edition macro framework for Map Tools that really speeds up game play. It has been a real effort, but I am getting there. Will start to share once I am ready.
/Myrhdraak

I look forward to it! Thanks for the update.

 

[Campbell]

• Use a Pathfinder Second Edition style proficiency system to improve the baseline math and make skills, defenses et al more compatible so interactions between them would be less awkward. Better, more resilient math.
• Rely more on tags to handle rules interactions.
• Let anyone proficient in the relevant skills learn and use rituals.
• Integrate powers, rituals, class features and feats more fully with skill challenges. Make skill challenges a core feature, rather than an addon.
  • Include integrated skill challenge elements into monsters.
• Make skill powers a core feature and separate from Utility Powers.
• Expand player quests.
• Make paragon paths and epic destinies come with stronger connections to the setting and rewards for playing to their themes.
• Make the World Axis and Nentir Vale even more central.
  • Make power source more meaningful with stronger narrative hooks. Reward players for playing to those connections.

Take everything it was before Essentials came out and turn it up to 11.

 

[kigmatzomat]

• Rename it to a different game. Even if it's got the D&D IP, don't call it D&D. Let it be D&D adjacent.

I agree with all this. I wasn't a fan of 4e but not because it was "bad" but because it was not my preference. It was like butterscotch: I don't like butterscotch but I don't think anyone who likes butterscotch is weird. But d&d is "chocolate" and you can't swap butterscotch for chocolate.

Changing the name would go a long way to separate it from other "flavors".

• Stop with the chart-filling in lieu of design. Just because you have 8 power types and 4 class roles doesn't mean you need 32 classes.

Yep.. show editorial self control. All classes should be independently compelling on their own merits.

• A better skill system. I'm not entirely sure what I'd do instead, but a game with combat as deep and interesting as 4e needs more from skills. And Skill Challenges are good, but they turn everything into a nail.

As the person who plays skill characters 9 games out of 10, definitely.

• Also do the 5e magic item treatment. Keep the abilities, lose the scaling enhancement bonuses.

I kind of liked the weapons that leveled but they needed more flavor. I have played a lot of earthdawn where characters have to perform deeds and research to wake up items' powers.

• Drop levels 21+. Maybe even drop levels 16+. Maybe add them in much later, but they're a low priority. That cuts down the number of powers and monsters that you need to create by 30%-50% right out of the gate.

One of the problems with 4e was people saw it as more of a beer-and-pretzels game for one shots with nameless characters than a campaign. Being only 10 levels would not help that.

Personally, I love high level resources because I run 3-7 year campaigns. Imo if they don't go to at least 20 at release, they won't have truly though through the mechanisms they want for leveling.

 

[Faolyn]

So I never played 4e, and the reason I never did was because, when I first read through the books, it was really, really clear it was a combat game, to the point that most spells with non-combat purposes weren't in the PHB, they didn't have good or neutral monsters in the MM, to the point that dryads, I believe, became plant monsters, and they didn't even include the bard because bards are far more face characters than combat characters. Maybe they improved on this later on in the game, I dunno--my initial readings turned me off from the edition completely.

So, to fix 4e, I would do more to up the emphasis on social and exploration, at the least till it's 5e levels. From the get-go. I'd prefer a lot more social and exploration, of course.

 

[Steampunkette]

1) I would cut out the vast majority of the powers.

Seriously. Just have flatly fewer of them that expressly get more powerful as you gain levels rather than replacing a level 3 encounter power with a level 7 encounter power that does the same basic thing but hits harder. That action alone would reduce the titanic bloat of the classes by 30-40%. Making a class for that game was 15 pages of work.

2) No GSL. OGL or ORC or CC. No GSL.

That's my main fixes.

 

[Undrave]

So, if you are not a 4e hater, how would you rework it? My personal takes would be:

Well first I want to say that not including the half level bonus means that after a while you just really fall behind in your saves and skill. The half level bonus meant that you just got BETTER at being an adventurer all around as time went on. I would go for the proficiency bonus system of 5e because I like the variance in weapon proficiency bonuses.

A few things I would do:

1- Cut down on the sheer number of powers a character gets. Instant of just getting more and more Encounter powers you replace your previous ones with improved versions. I would replace the levels that give Utility powers with class features so that you could pick passive effects OR active powers (including skill powers). I would also make your class stop giving you stuff once you pick your Paragon Path and again with Epic Destiny. Maybe you just get extra uses of older powers. This would lower the choice paralysis in combat.

2- To further cut down on powers I would make it so a character would always only knows 2 powers that uses your reaction: basic Opprtunity Attacks and a class specific one with variable frequency. The Wizard would get Shield, for exemple, and maybe the rogue gets a reactive tumble, that sort of things. With a handful of races granting a third one (like the Goblin one that lets you shift when you're missed or the Halfling's power). Maybe some classes give you a few choices (that you could swap with retrain rules) but each character is hard limited so there's not a bunch of stuff.

3- I'd probably reduce the number of types of bonuses. Maybe down to "permanant" (maybe not actually permanant but with a fixed duration) and "temporary" (with a volatile duration) bonuses wth the highest one of each type always winning.

4- Maybe roll the buff duration mechanic with the Saves End mechanic. At the end of your turn you roll your saving throw, if you roll 11 or above you get rid of a negative effect on your of your choice, and if you roll 10 or below, you get rid of a POSITIVE effect on you. Sam would go for enemy. No more tracking of duration, you just roll a dice at the end of each turn and you could have mechanics that interact with that duration roll.

5- Personally I'm fine with the standard progression and format, but I would totally try to create mechanics that would thematically link the class of a same power source. I liked that Divine Class all had Channel Divinity, and I feel like all the others should have a similar linking mechanic.

6- Rework the Controller role so it feels more like a proper role and have the controllers more consistent.

7- Keep the Monster Vault math for monsters

8- Speaking of the HP bloat, I would reduce the max HP and up the number of Healing Surges a little bit. The goal would be to make individual battles more perilous while keeping the day longer.

9- Make more use of Rituals as well as the Disease Track.

Step 1: Exile whoever came up with Essentials to the MtG department, never to be seen again.

Good plan!