TTRPGs: broken mechanics vs. abusive players

[Lanefan]

See, for me, it's just a good example of the problem. It's not that spells are broken or whatnot. That's not really the issue. It's the spells (and it's generally spells, although there are other bits and bobs) become default. Like I said earlier, if something is so good that it's the obvious choice in most situations, then it's probably too good.

After all, why is Wall of Force only affected by Disintegrate? It can't be dispelled or even broken down? Why not? I can block an ancient dragon with a 5th level spell and there is nothing it can do about it? Seriously? These spells should have break DC's - after all, I can smash a Bigby's Hand, which is a force effect, so, why not Wall of Force?

I call that a terminology problem, as while the Bigby's Hand spells (and some others) reference force, they don't mean the same type of capital-F Force that comprises Walls of Force, Forcecages, and the like. Capital-F Force can't be broken. Small-f force needs a different term, though I can't quickly think of a good one.

And though I can't speak for 5e (I could look it up but can't be arsed right now), in comparison to most other Wall spells the versions of WoF I'm used to have a relatively short duration - a few tens of minutes, maybe - meaning that while you can block an ancient dragon with one it won't stay blocked for long.

And that really highlights the problem. The spell effects are so inconsistent. And those inconsistencies often are the root of problems. Frankly, it's pretty obvious that the higher level effects in 5e were never really play tested. There are just far, far too many effects there that are pretty over powered. And, again, if we go with the "oh, well, use the same tactics against the PC's", well, if I do that, I'll TPK the party every time because I have unlimited resources and they don't.

This last is not true. You have whatever resources are available to the foes at the moment and that's it. Spellcaster foes have (I hope!) the same limits on casting as do the PC casters in terms of durations, number of spells castable, and so forth; so to say you have unlimited resources is a rather major overstatement.

So sure, if the PCs want to use something overpowered while at the same time not preparing defenses should the same thing be used against them then I'd say it's not your problem as GM.

 

[Hussar]

This last is not true. You have whatever resources are available to the foes at the moment and that's it. Spellcaster foes have (I hope!) the same limits on casting as do the PC casters in terms of durations, number of spells castable, and so forth; so to say you have unlimited resources is a rather major overstatement.

You misunderstand.

I have unlimited resources in that I can just wave my hand, and, poof, the baddie has cast Forbiddence every day for a month, spent the 1000 gp and has a permanent effect. I can wave my hand and Guards and Wards have been made permanent. I can wave my hand and have Simulacrum's of my baddie on hand. And that Simulacrum can have a Simulacrum. And that one can have one. So, instead of facing one Archmage, you are facing ten of them. Sure, some of them don't have many HP, but, who cares?

So on and so forth. I'm a lich that's been hanging out in this tomb for a couple of centuries. I have (more or less) unlimited time and resources to add to my lair.

 

[Thomas Shey]

And that really highlights the problem. The spell effects are so inconsistent. And those inconsistencies often are the root of problems. Frankly, it's pretty obvious that the higher level effects in 5e were never really play tested. There are just far, far too many effects there that are pretty over powered. And, again, if we go with the "oh, well, use the same tactics against the PC's", well, if I do that, I'll TPK the party every time because I have unlimited resources and they don't.

This bears on the comment I make semi-regularly that one D&D's ongoing issues is how bloody ad-hoc everything is. Its not that other games are immune to this (RQ rune/divine spells are binned on three levels and are pretty ad-hoc too), but usually when that's true you only see a small number of them in play. The combination of spells, magic items and other bits and bobs can end up being present in wide numbers and variety over the course of a campaign.

 

[Mad_Jack]

Something tells me that if summoning ants is that high on their list of go-tos for problem solving, they've got issues I can't fix.

Actually, given just how much a swarm of ants can accomplish in real life (and the presence of giant ants in the game), a character using their swarm of ant minions to solve most of their problems seems pretty doable...

(Now I'm picturing a halfling swarm druid or summoner wizard that rides around on a giant ant companion all the time.)

 

[CleverNickName]

This bears on the comment I make semi-regularly that one D&D's ongoing issues is how bloody ad-hoc everything is.

I think this is a feature, not a bug: I appreciate having some rules, but I want them to stay in the background.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think this is a feature, not a bug: I appreciate having some rules, but I want them to stay in the background.

While I'm not a fan of Rulings Not Rules, that's not what I was actually talking about. I was referring to "This spell shows no particular relation to other spells of a similar type, and trying to figure out what level a more or less similar spell should be is entirely a guessing game." This goes all the way back to OD&D where it was often kind of unclear why Fireball was a 3rd level spell and Icestorm a 4th.

 

[Lanefan]

This goes all the way back to OD&D where it was often kind of unclear why Fireball was a 3rd level spell and Icestorm a 4th.

I've always put that down to fire-resistance items and effects being more easily available in the game than cold-resist items and effects.

 

[James Gasik]

I've always put that down to fire-resistance items and effects being more easily available in the game than cold-resist items and effects.

I had to check this, because I always thought a Ring of Warmth was a lower grade item than a Ring of Fire Resistance, but sure enough, Fire Resistance is on table A, and the Ring of Warmth is on table B. I'm not sure that's enough of a balance point to justify Ice Storm being a 4th level spell, but that could have been the logic.

Then again, lightning bolt and call lightning are 3rd level spells, and electricity resistance is fairly hard to get.

 

[Lanefan]

I had to check this, because I always thought a Ring of Warmth was a lower grade item than a Ring of Fire Resistance, but sure enough, Fire Resistance is on table A, and the Ring of Warmth is on table B. I'm not sure that's enough of a balance point to justify Ice Storm being a 4th level spell, but that could have been the logic.

Then again, lightning bolt and call lightning are 3rd level spells, and electricity resistance is fairly hard to get.

And lightning is nastier in that if you fail your save (most of) your items have a way tougher save to make in comparison with either fire or cold. Yeah, that one doesn't fit the theory.

 

[bloodtide]

And that really highlights the problem. The spell effects are so inconsistent. And those inconsistencies often are the root of problems. Frankly, it's pretty obvious that the higher level effects in 5e were never really play tested. There are just far, far too many effects there that are pretty over powered. And, again, if we go with the "oh, well, use the same tactics against the PC's", well, if I do that, I'll TPK the party every time because I have unlimited resources and they don't.

This is the problem. You simply can't have a complex game, unless you have a million pages of rules. This is why D&D, the game that lets to do (try) anything has a DM to adjudicate things. In D&D a player can try anything the DM will allow and want to run. You simply can not have a million rules: it's just not practical.

Some games do go the other direction: simple. The spellcaster is first strictly boxed in to only a couple simple spells, and second the games main "opposing rule" can defeat magic with a roll. So character casts a spell, and character can "stop" the spell in some vague unsaid way. This makes spells just like any other action in the games rules.

For D&D you do need a lot of legalese. Really adding a couple of words can fix most things.