D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

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In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.
 

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I would think that if you were to create a Venn Diagram out of all the various different possibilities of an official 5e Dark Sun product; the attempts that would please die hard fans of the setting and the attempts that wouldn't alienate a good chunk of the new player base would be two circles that will never, ever, touch.

Why bother then, at that point?

Yup. WotC can't even publish a psionicist that the community agrees on. Dark Sun, as originally presented, is basically a total conversion of D&D.

If I remember right, Planescape had like 20-30 pages dedicated to player rules, with the rest dedicated to lore and setting description. Dark Sun had 150 pages of lore, plus 150 pages of mechanical changes, plus you had to use the Complete Psionics Handbook to get any psionics rules! It came with it's own Dark Sun specific PHB and it didn't detail all of the classes and mechanics for the setting.

Nevermind that you've got:
  • Twisted morals
  • Broken ethics
  • Climate change and total ecological collapse
  • Populist tyrants
  • Corrupt churches
  • Ubiquitous chattel slavery
  • Normalized xenophobia
  • Normalized racism
  • Normalized person trafficking
  • Genocide
  • Eugenics
  • Widespread cannibalism
  • Ecoterrorist native populations
  • Magic as solely destructive
  • No gods
  • No hope
  • Even death brings only oblivion
Now, you can do settings that are bleak like this. Most FromSoft games (Dark Souls, etc.) are worlds brought low similar to Athas. But video games give you a lot more control over grimdark settings than a TTRPG setting.

I have a huge amount of affection and nostalgia for Dark Sun, but I really don't blame WotC for skipping it for now. Quite frankly, after the past several years I do not want to play in a grimdark setting.
 
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I'll hijack the thread for a moment. I've been thinking of buying something Dark Sun related for a while. I know there's some 2E stuff, 3E stuff from 3rd parties and some 4E stuff. Which Dark Sun material would you recommend?
 

Slap a restriction rating for mature players on it, adults above 18 or such, to prevent kids from playing or reading the material, this would actually make the setting even more coveted due to the rating just look what it did for the music industry, lol. I have a name for the company that says things like that statement but due to language restrictions on here I can't call them that word that is sometimes a name of a feline animal there a cat that's it, but they are.
 



I'll hijack the thread for a moment. I've been thinking of buying something Dark Sun related for a while. I know there's some 2E stuff, 3E stuff from 3rd parties and some 4E stuff. Which Dark Sun material would you recommend?
The original box set is the best place to start. It’s on DM’s Guild as a PDF and POD. Likely far cheaper than second hand. If you can't get that for a reasonable price, the next best place to start is the Dark Sun Campaign Setting book for 4E.

Beyond the original box, there's lots of cool stuff to choose from.

My top three picks would be Earth, Air, Fire, and Water along with The Veiled Alliance and The Complete Gladiator's Handbook. These are the cleric, wizard, and gladiator source books, respectively.

The next two would be the monster books, Terrors of the Desert and Terrors Beyond Tyr.

Both Elves of Athas and Thri-Kreen of Athas are good for their respective races. The thri-kreen book gets a bit...weird.

Slave Tribes is a book about slavery on Athas and escaped slaves and the communities they form away from the city-states and the sorcerer-kings.

Want psionics, grab Will and the Way along with the Complete Psionicist Handbook.

Want a merchant- or trade-based game, grab Dune Traders.

Dragon Kings is for epic-level play and armies.

There are a few regional books that are hit and miss. City by the Silt Sea, City-State of Tyr, Ivory Triangle, and Valley of Dust and Fire. They're all useful for what they do but the quality varies as does their usefulness. Unless you plan on going to the Valley of Dust and Fire...it's not worth picking up.

The adventures are hit an miss and likely incredibly expensive on the second hand market as they were mostly in squishy boxes with spiral-bound booklets. I remember liking Merchant House of Amketch, Marauders of Nibenay, and Road to Urik. Partially for the adventures themselves and partially for the extra details they provided.
 

I would think that if you were to create a Venn Diagram out of all the various different possibilities of an official 5e Dark Sun product; the attempts that would please die hard fans of the setting and the attempts that wouldn't alienate a good chunk of the new player base would be two circles that will never, ever, touch.

Why bother then, at that point?

I don't think that would stop them, to be honest. They certainly had no issues chucking literal thousands of pages of old Ravenloft lore out the window when they did Van Richten's regardless of what the diehards would think, after all. WotC are, i believe, realistic enough to understand that when redoing old settings they're never going to please everyone, it's a matter of catering to the new player base (who are the larger fraction) while throwing enough bones to the die hards that they feel a bit seen. But if objective 2 gets in the way of objective 1, then the old schoolers are just gonna have deal with it.

Which on the whole, is understandable and even as an old schooler I honestly don't really mind. All these settings have changed drastically in past editions too, no reason it can't happen again. I actually happen to agree that 2e/3e Ravenloft (for instance) needed a dramatic do-over, I just happen to heavily disagree with the direction that remaking took in WotCs final product. Spelljammer seems to have gotten a poor reception, but the criticism wasn't based on the lore changes from the original (Spelljammer 5e hardly HAD any lore after all?). Most people seem fairly satisfied with SotDQ from a lore point of view too, even though it certainly made some pretty significant retcons.
 

You can fix the Muls and Half-Giants, and the cannibalistic halflings don't need fixing, but the rules issues definitely mean stock 5E can't cut it, if you want "classic Dark Sun" (which isn't what I'd expected, personally). You'd need rules for:

1) Low-quality equipment - lots of people have interesting house rules there.

2) Defiling - You'd need to actively define what Arcane magic was and create a defiling ruleset that didn't make it just "equal but different" to normal Arcane magic, but more powerful - creating a balance issue, albeit an intentional one.

3) Psionics, which would mean a 3PP add-on given WotC seem to have kind of given up rather pathetically here.

It's doable, so "hell no" only works if you mean "stock" 5E, no house rules, no 3PP material and classic Dark Sun, but it's significant effort.

Re: Eberron, by that logic, basically every setting only works in the edition it was made for, with the possible ironic exception of Planescape. That just seems like overstating a problem for effect.
I mean, is it really wrong though? When these settings were created, they were created with the rules of the game in mind, and they wanted the setting to reflect those rules. Hence why we get things like cataclysms, times of troubles, spellplagues, sunderings, and whatever else, radically changing the settings around because of a rules update.

I mean, let's look at Dark Sun with the 2e rules.

*While survival spells existed, they competed with other spells people wanted to use so they weren't used as often (or so I've been told in threads on this forum where people gripe about goodberry et. al, and I point out, "but we had those spells in AD&D!"). But TSR staff, unlike WotC staff, had no problems whatsoever printing several pages of "spell changes" to their settings in boxed sets (see also Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and Planescape).

*Magic items were assumed; increased rarity was offset by letting players have superhuman to godlike ability scores (20's for humans, up to 24 for a half giant). This was further augmented by:

*A Psionics system had been produced, and was directly integrated with the setting. Every character had at least one (and possibly more!) Psionic powers in addition to whatever else you wanted to do.

*TSR was also perfectly willing to create new classes at the drop of a hat to meet setting requirements. Thus the Defiler, who goes up levels faster than the Preserver, the Templar, non-spellcasting Bards, and so on. 5e's approach would make all these subclasses, which would mean they work much more like their parent class, and they would have to make Defilers stronger than other spellcasters (in an edition where most would argue spellcasters don't need serious buffs) to make it worth not just being a Preserver. Further, when DS was made, there were TWO arcane spellcasting classes that needed adjustment. One simply lost their magic. Now upthread, someone pointed out how many spellcasting subclasses exist in 5e; you'd have to ban the lot of them!

(I will admit that you could probably make Warlocks into Templars, which 4e kind of did, though the only allowed Patron is the Sorcerer-King).

If you create a setting to reflect rules elements, when those rules elements are drastically altered, the setting is no longer the same. Dark Sun runs counter to enough assumptions that 5e uses that after all the work needed to adapt it, it won't feel like 5e anymore. Since we know "how a game feels" is important, consider that. Maybe you are fine with that because you're ready for 5e to change drastically anyways. But does the majority think that way?

If you say "hey here's this great new 5e setting but...well, it's not going to feel like the game you're playing now" to people who actually like 5e the way it is...what then?

I use Eberron as an example in that Discord post because we know for a fact it was the first setting made with 3.5 in mind. Which is why subsequent iterations have felt hollow by comparison.

I see these as significant hurdles to the development of a Dark Sun that feels anything like the setting that was created for 2e. So the question you have to ask is, if the update is that different from either what it was or whatever new system you've adapted it from, who is the product for?

Old gamers who loved the old Dark Sun? Obviously not, they have their old books!

New gamers who love 5e? Why would they change?

Let's not forget the largest assumption of 5e: make products that the largest percentage of your fanbase will buy for maximum profit.
 

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