D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[Chaosmancer]

Not a subclass. A stance or a round by round option that can be dropped whenever. It's not like moon druid lost their casting permanently.

If you want to do co-opt another class's reason for existing, you should at least have to burn some spell slots.

Why? Monks don't need to use spell slots to act as scouts, neither do rangers. Bards aren't burning spell slots to have expertise, yet the rogue seems to do fine.

Why is it a bad thing if the Moon Druid and the Barbarian, to thematically tied classes, can both fill the same niche? It isn't like Barbarians can't be given cool things too.

And in terms of "tanking" Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Wizard, Rogue, Monk they all approach "tanking" in different ways, but they are all brought up as tanks or off-tanks, so why is it so terrible to add Druid to that list? Heck, Artificers and Clerics can make very good tanky characters too, I've often shocked DMs by how tanky my artificers are.

 

[Stalker0]

Why? Monks don't need to use spell slots to act as scouts, neither do rangers. Bards aren't burning spell slots to have expertise, yet the rogue seems to do fine.

Why is it a bad thing if the Moon Druid and the Barbarian, to thematically tied classes, can both fill the same niche? It isn't like Barbarians can't be given cool things too.

And in terms of "tanking" Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Wizard, Rogue, Monk they all approach "tanking" in different ways, but they are all brought up as tanks or off-tanks, so why is it so terrible to add Druid to that list? Heck, Artificers and Clerics can make very good tanky characters too, I've often shocked DMs by how tanky my artificers are.

Monks and rogues are not tanks.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Monks and rogues are not tanks.

Seen both fill the role. Monks can have decent AC, disadvantage on all attacks against them and handle ranged fire better than any other class. Heck, Kensei can have pretty high AC too.

Rogues, decent AC, and Uncanny Dodge halving damage they take, plus the ability to take zero damage from dex saves.


But debating this won't answer the question. Why is it bad if Moon Druids can be tanks? We don't complain about Clerics with 22 hp, massive healing, and being good tanks. We don't complain about Paladins as Tanks. So why can't druids have that option? It isn't limited to one class anyways.

 

[Stalker0]

But debating this won't answer the question. Why is it bad if Moon Druids can be tanks? We don't complain about Clerics with 22 hp, massive healing, and being good tanks. We don't complain about Paladins as Tanks. So why can't druids have that option? It isn't limited to one class anyways.

Except druids have way more hp with the old school wildshape AND still have big healing. Its not a question of "can druids tank" its "why do druids get to tank better than any other class and get full spellcasting"

 

[Clint_L]

The definite problem is the CR of the bear. Not just for wild shape, but for DMs using it, or for summons.

And if there is ever any other OP beast that shows up, it can also become an issue.

Giant Hyena has 45 HP. Dire Wolf has 37. Giant Spider has 26 HP but a nasty poison attack and web, plus climbing. Deinonychus makes 3 attacks plus can knock its target prone and get a 4th.

CR 1 monsters are too powerful for the moon druid to be able to use at low levels, IMO.

 

[Clint_L]

Seen both fill the role. Monks can have decent AC, disadvantage on all attacks against them and handle ranged fire better than any other class. Heck, Kensei can have pretty high AC too.

Rogues, decent AC, and Uncanny Dodge halving damage they take, plus the ability to take zero damage from dex saves.


But debating this won't answer the question. Why is it bad if Moon Druids can be tanks? We don't complain about Clerics with 22 hp, massive healing, and being good tanks. We don't complain about Paladins as Tanks. So why can't druids have that option? It isn't limited to one class anyways.

I want moon druids to still be tanks. But you have to concede that they are badly unbalanced at low levels - it's not just a ton of HP, they are also probably the best damage dealers, best scouts, and then can drop wild shape and have a full suite of spells.

A druid getting to be a brown bear, dire wolf, giant spider, etc., TWICE, as a bonus action, at level 2, is busted. If the druid chooses giant hyena, they have over 100 effective HP. At level 2.

 

[Enrahim2]

Disagree. Do you know the number of times I've needed to roll social checks against an animal? Zero. In ten something years of 5e DnD, it has never once come up. The only benefit to your version is advantage on social checks, and getting a spell that you could have just cast instead of wild shaping. And that just... isn't a thing that actually matters.

Exactly, it do not cater to the same playstyle as 5ed. It changes the druid radically. It goes from the class that can solve any problem themselves to the class that can solve most problems as long as they are in a biome with an aproperiate animal type.

Of course you never negotiate with an animal in 5ed. You never need to. And the DM never plan on interesting animals for you to run across, as the chances are you will either just ignore it, or kill (, loot and eat) it.

Make the druid the social manipulator of animal kingdom, then they still have enormous problem solving utility as they can seek out and ask the relevant animals to do their dirty work and expect them to comply if it is reasonable. For tiny forms this is covered by the familiar. It hands more control over to the hands of the DM, but that might be exactly what the utility part of this class needs.

Edit: the duration is also essential, as by this makes the speaking with single type of animal last a lot longer than the spell, supporting more complex operations.

 

[mellored]

Except druids have way more hp with the old school wildshape AND still have big healing. Its not a question of "can druids tank" its "why do druids get to tank better than any other class and get full spellcasting"

No one is saying druids should have the same amount of HP as before. Or be better than a paladin.

But wild shape should be a better tank than a druid with a shield.

As of this playtest, you spend your channel nature to lose AC and spell casting, and gain a moderate melee attack and some speed.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Okay? And did you need to roll social checks for that, or did you mostly just RP?

Because in my expeirence it is all just RP, because the DM doesn't plan on you talking to the animals.

this was so long ago that I am not sure the concept of social checks had reached us.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Except druids have way more hp with the old school wildshape AND still have big healing. Its not a question of "can druids tank" its "why do druids get to tank better than any other class and get full spellcasting"

Okay, better question.

However, are we talking about Druids or are we talking about Moon Druids? Because there is a distinctive difference here. Normal Druids can get a decent amount of HP, but they have to use their action, and they certainly aren't effective in combat after that point.

Level 11, turning into a Tiger, can net you in theory an extra 74 hp, but you also have a 12 AC which means you are hit every single turn, and you have a +5 to hit, dealing 8 damage. Put that up against an Adult White, and it isn't even fair. The dragon will rip through you without you being effective in the slightest. You will change, lose shape and take damage, change, lose shape and take damage and sure you've survived three rounds but you have accomplished nothing. And you aren't a big enough threat for the Dragon to ignore your allies. Barbarian meanwhile IS being effective in that fight and therefore drawing attention.

Now, Moon Druid, different story. They can be far more effective. But now we are asking "why can't there be a subclass that is highly effective as a tank" just like there are subclasses that are casters or healers.