D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[Chaosmancer]

I want moon druids to still be tanks. But you have to concede that they are badly unbalanced at low levels - it's not just a ton of HP, they are also probably the best damage dealers, best scouts, and then can drop wild shape and have a full suite of spells.

A druid getting to be a brown bear, dire wolf, giant spider, etc., TWICE, as a bonus action, at level 2, is busted. If the druid chooses giant hyena, they have over 100 effective HP. At level 2.

I can agree that Moon Druids are too powerful at low levels. And honestly... I think that the templates are a great solution to that problem. Because they allow us to directly input what would be balanced for the Moon Druid to do.

However, currently, this version not only wants to make EVERY druid a tank (which it fails at) but also removes any ability for the Moon Druid to be an effective tank.

 

[Chaosmancer]

this was so long ago that I am not sure the concept of social checks had reached us.

Okay, cool. I didn't claim druids never talk to animals. I was responding to the idea of making wildshape better by giving them advantage on social checks with animals while wildshaped... which I feel is a ribbon that would never actually be useful.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Exactly, it do not cater to the same playstyle as 5ed. It changes the druid radically. It goes from the class that can solve any problem themselves to the class that can solve most problems as long as they are in a biome with an aproperiate animal type.

Okay, do I need to say more than "Ranger" to explain why a design philosophy of being effective only in more niche situations is a poor design philosophy? Druid's already have plenty of tools to deal with the problems involving talking to animals, and all the suggested ribbon does is put forth the idea that Druids who just cast Speak with Animals are going to be less effective at talking to animals than Druids that use wildshape. And that, in my expeirence, won't make wildshape more appealing, because "speaking to animals" has never been a situation where I've had the druid roll difficult checks on persuasion or deception.

Of course you never negotiate with an animal in 5ed. You never need to. And the DM never plan on interesting animals for you to run across, as the chances are you will either just ignore it, or kill (, loot and eat) it.

Ding ding! You never need this ability, so why would giving this ability balance the class? You could give artificers advantage on social rolls against Constructs, and it wouldn't move the needle on the class's actual power or effectiveness, so why would we imagine this works for druids and animals?

Make the druid the social manipulator of animal kingdom, then they still have enormous problem solving utility as they can seek out and ask the relevant animals to do their dirty work and expect them to comply if it is reasonable. For tiny forms this is covered by the familiar. It hands more control over to the hands of the DM, but that might be exactly what the utility part of this class needs.

Edit: the duration is also essential, as by this makes the speaking with single type of animal last a lot longer than the spell, supporting more complex operations.

But the class can already do this. That is my point. Speak With Animals is plenty to give the druid the expectation that they can go and talk to animals and get them to do things. You don't need a "social manipulator" for the animal kingdom, because most animals are dumb and short-sighted and offering them some food or some shiny rock is plenty to get them to go and do something.

I'm not saying the idea of the druid getting animals to work for them is a bad idea, I'm saying they already accomplish the goal without rolling, so why give them advantage on a roll they never make?

 

[DavyGreenwind]

It seems to me that it's mostly Druid-lovers like myself who dislike these changes. People cannot understand our pain unless they've experienced for themselves the pure joy of turning into a spider, climbing on the ceiling, dropping down on foes, and turning into a rhinoceros mid-air.

Some folks say "Druids have too many options. You have to look in the back of the book." I say to them, how would you like it if Warlocks only received one or two slightly customizable Invocations?

I agree that the 2014 Druid was a little messy. But instead of getting rid of all choice, how about you organize a neat appendix of wildshape options? Like the spell list at the back of the book?

 

[mellored]

Also, why do deer get a climb speed?

 

[OB1]

I want moon druids to still be tanks. But you have to concede that they are badly unbalanced at low levels - it's not just a ton of HP, they are also probably the best damage dealers, best scouts, and then can drop wild shape and have a full suite of spells.

A druid getting to be a brown bear, dire wolf, giant spider, etc., TWICE, as a bonus action, at level 2, is busted. If the druid chooses giant hyena, they have over 100 effective HP. At level 2.

Other than limiting the CR of lower level moon druids (which I think is a good solution) what if there was a rule that when you wild shape, the beast either has it's HP, or the Druid's current max HP, whichever is lower? That would scale decently, I think.

 

[Cadence]

Also, why do deer get a climb speed?

Parkour?

Deer Climbs Near-Vertical Embankment With Ease

Many people may not realize it, but deer are excellent climbers. Just watch the incredible footage below, showing the moment a deer climbs a near-vertical embankment with ease. Now, while deer may be great climbers, there is another animal that has even more incredible climbing skills. Click...

roaring.earth

 

[Weiley31]

Monks and rogues are not tanks.

Seen both fill the role. Monks can have decent AC, disadvantage on all attacks against them and handle ranged fire better than any other class. Heck, Kensei can have pretty high AC too.

Rogues, decent AC, and Uncanny Dodge halving damage they take, plus the ability to take zero damage from dex saves.


But debating this won't answer the question. Why is it bad if Moon Druids can be tanks? We don't complain about Clerics with 22 hp, massive healing, and being good tanks. We don't complain about Paladins as Tanks. So why can't druids have that option? It isn't limited to one class anyways.

If you Black Flag it, both of them can get D10s for their Hit Die.

 

[Weiley31]

Parkour?

Deer Climbs Near-Vertical Embankment With Ease

Many people may not realize it, but deer are excellent climbers. Just watch the incredible footage below, showing the moment a deer climbs a near-vertical embankment with ease. Now, while deer may be great climbers, there is another animal that has even more incredible climbing skills. Click...

roaring.earth

Deer and Goats can be surprisingly pro Cliffhanger when it comes to climbing crap.

 

[mellored]

Ok, so why do rhinoceros get a climb speed?