New Wild Shape

Chaosmancer

Legend
Crawford talking about Shield, which is not on the primal list, is kind of silly to me. Why is he even bringing up this interaction? You have to use a feat to take it, and it's one feat option of many.

I was also really stunned and confused by his comment that the "power" of the tiny form came from being able to move through the spaces of multiple enemies.... with seemingly no thought given to all the attacks of opportunity that would trigger? Like, sure, I could turn into super rat and run through the spaces of three orcs... triggering a minimum of three attacks of opportunity, which at low levels is a death sentence. Unless I disengage first? But now I have to wonder, what are you thinking Super Rat is going to do by disengaging and running through those orc's spaces that could not be done by disengaging and running AROUND them. And at a certain point, it becomes such a niche option that... yes, let's let them do that, because it is a niche situation where they have a clever solution.

And, on shield, Shield is EVEN BETTER on a druid in their normal form, because the normal form has higher armor. Being able to cast abjuration spells is nice for Moon Druids who wildshape, but druids who don't wildshape can cast ALL schools of magic, so it isn't that the Moon Druid gets this powerful option, it is that wildshape has to be worth LOSING the other options.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I keep seeing people forget that when they bring up the mountain of health Moon Druids get. Sure, they have lots of hit points, but they are basically auto-hit by enemies. It sort of balances out, because it isn't just about total hit points, it's about effective hit points.
Infinite hit points at 20th level is nice, though. :)
 

James Gasik

Pandion Knight
Supporter
On the surface, not wanting Tiny animals to be as buff as regular ones makes sense, but citing it as a balance issue seems dubious.

HOWEVER, I guarantee a few years from now, you'd have a bunch of DM's griping about Tiny Druids wrecking games and "not making sense" if they were let in the game without penalties, lol.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Even if it was 180 temp hp, I'm not sure I'd consider it in exchange for my one and only 9th level slot. But enemy damage has increased. So, I think there needs to be a way to scale how effective it is to spend the slot, not just making each slot more temp hp, because I don't think they will ever really drop 6th thru 9th spells on this.


Also, here is a thought, and it does get into a noodly and complicated mechanic but I LIKE it. What if the spell slot spending raised your maximum hp, or created a weird third type. Something like "you gain X temp hp, these temp hp act and are treated as normal hp in all ways except they disappear when you revert back to your normal form" This would allow for temp hp abilities to keep working, healing spells to be cast, and other great things while also not having the moment of the transformation ending and you immediately dying.
Here's another idea, and I haven't looked closely to see if this is balanced or not. What if when the druid spends a spell slot of 4-6 it gets an additional attack, and when a spell slot of 7-8 is spent it gets 2 additional attacks?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Concentration was the only thing I could think of. But that doesn't seem to be working. So maybe just don't use wild shape in combat.

How about

1: Wild shape: Scout or Travel forms that someone else mentioned.

5: Expend a use of channel nature to turn a failed concentration save into a successful one.

And leave "combat wildshape" as a moon druid thing.
3: Bonus action transform, scaling THP, bonus action unarmed strike
6: chose a special features (web, venom, reach, fly by attack, ect...)
10: elemental resistance and damage
14: transform as a reaction
What about advantage on concentration saves while a Moon Druid is in wildshape?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
On the surface, not wanting Tiny animals to be as buff as regular ones makes sense, but citing it as a balance issue seems dubious.

HOWEVER, I guarantee a few years from now, you'd have a bunch of DM's griping about Tiny Druids wrecking games and "not making sense" if they were let in the game without penalties, lol.

Yeah, I sort of get it, but all that damage is going directly to the Druid's hp. I was honestly expecting him to cite not being able to knock them out of tiny form making them more powerful scouts, since then if they are injured they aren't forced back to their normal form.

But he didn't seem to consider scouting... at all. Which considering it is the only critique I've ever heard of tiny forms still just seems so bizarre.
 

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