D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[CommodoreKong]

Refining this idea I posted a couple hundred posts ago. I think this set of templates would cover most of what Druids can do now, but scaled back at lower levels and a bit more powerful in later levels. THP given go away when you revert form, and are only given when you first use the feature.

Traveler (1st level template option) - Small, your hp, speed 50, (can fly at 5th) 1d4 damage (no multiattack), don't provoke opportunity attacks, Dex save advantage

Predator (1st level template option) - Medium, gain 1/2 Wis Score THP, Speed 40, 1d8 damage or 1d4 + poison (condition) (multiattack at 5th), stealth/perception advantage/training, (Swim/water breathe 7th)

Scout (Replaces 2nd level Wild Companion feature) - Tiny, no attack or magic, damage reverts you to normal form, speed 30 (fly at 9th), climb, perception advantage

Sentinel (5th level template option) - Large, gain Wis Score THP, Speed 30 (fly at 9th), 1d12 damage, STR advantage

Goliath (Replaces 11th level Tiny Critter feature) - Huge, gain 2xWis Score THP, Speed 30, multiattack, 3d8 damage + grapple on hit, reach 15', STR advantage, 1 minute duration

Honestly this is more along the lines of what I thought they would do with templates and doing something along these lines would work far better than what is currently in the UA.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No. And if you carefully read carefully my claim was that this could be a tool for most situations. Most campaigns go over a range of landscapes, so most of the time will be outside any given landscape. Similar with creature types. Hence the ranger abilities were for a typical campaign completely inaccessible most of the time. On the other hand my experience is that most campaigns spend most of their time in places where there are some local fauna. As such I fail to see how you can invoke ranger on that suggestion?

Because of your choice of the phrase "as long as they are in a biome with an appropriate animal type. " Which reads to me as though you were trying to limit it further. You have to be in the right place and have turned into the right animal, to get the bonus. If your intent was instead to talk about it as "as long as they are in a place with Beasts" that is a slightly different discussion and I wouldn't have brought up the Ranger.

I think the point I failed to convey is that the reason you don't need it is because you could just turn into the animal yourself and handle the situation without having to go to the actual animal.

And you've immediately given the same impression again with this, like you need to be a dog to talk to dogs. So if a druid is flying around in bird form and they find a horse, you would say this niche ability wouldn't be useful?

But then I'm not sure if that is what you are saying, because you finish it by saying you can turn into the animal without having to go to the actual animal, which implies you aren't asking them for anything? Which means there is no point to social checks.

And animals are in most settings a lot more common than constructs. If you seek out some construct and the DM say no, then that seem sensible to me. If the DM however do not offer suggestions to available animals with certain traits likely to be found in a non-desolated area to someone with the suggested ability I would consider that actively sabotaging the class in line with filling the world with anti magic zones.

This is why I think it could work out with druids and animals.

Yes, finding any animal in an area is something druids can do. Then they can cast Speak With Animals. They don't need to use wild shape at all. They don't need advantage on social rolls at all.

I would also say a DM who is requiring difficult persuasion checks or deception checks, where getting advantage is actually useful, from the Druid is pushing the bounds. Offering a raven some shiny bauble to get it to poop on a noble shouldn't even be a roll. The Raven wants the shiny bauble, it will do the thing to get the shiny bauble. Complex social interactions that require rolls and well-planned execution that can benefit from advantage need something more complex than an animal.

We read speak with animals differently. I read it mainly as an information source. "You might be able to persuade a beast to perform a small favor for you, at the GM’s discretion." Sound very much not like a guarantee to make an elephant follow you into combat for trinkets to me. (And the pure GM discretion part is probably part of why skill rolls rarely are suggested, a class ability specifically giving advantage will cause prompt for such rolls). As a DM I would certanly not let a player get that so easily. With this suggested change however I would be thrilled to see the druid assert their position as alpha female, and lead the entire herd from the front charging trough the enemy camp.

That would be something I don't see how you would be likely to achieve even with the 5ed druid? (unless you have a very rule of cool dm)

Sure, you might not often be able to lead a herd of elephants through an enemy camp with just Speak with Animals. You also have Animal Friendship, Beast Bond, and the Animal Handling skill. Just off the top of my head.

And sure, you have described a cool scene, it would be really fun to have a Druid do that. But the type of situation where that can occur, where the player would want it to occur, and where it would be useful to occur are very limited. Limited enough that I don't see it being a fix to Wildshape. Remember, Wildshape as the UA is presenting it is the Druid's primary feature, and their primary combat feature, which I think is a mistake because it doesn't work as a primary combat feature for all druids. Giving them a highly niche ability, which doesn't give them more options than they already have, doesn't fix the problems with wildshape.

I think an important analogy here is the windy tunnel phenomenom. Old dungeons were filled with windy tunnels. This was because there was rules saying the torch could blow out. Once the rules was gone so did the tunells. When was the last time your party listened at a door? Early D&D had rules for that, and it hence was done all the time (even if it had drawbacks associated with it). And crafting magic items became a much bigger thing in 3ed when solid rules for it came in place. Adding distinct rules for something tend to make that thing come a lot more into play. And I think that effect would be really strong with the advantage on animal interaction rule.

How many people have reported that Dragon Sorcerers have led fleets of Dragons into combat? Dragon sorcerers have a rule that they have advantage on interactions with dragons. Do you know how many dragons I've seen encountered by dragon Sorcerers? None.

Now, yes, Dragons are rarer than just normal animals. But, again, talking to animals and convincing them to do things is something the druid can already do. It is something the Gnome can already do. And they do it. And they rarely fail at it, so why give them advantage? Especially advantage that seems as potentially limited as they currently have it.

Heck, if you gave druids just a flat "you have advantage on all rolls relating to animals" people would consider it a nice ribbon, but they wouldn't suddenly be talking about all the new options and routes open to druid play. This seems like a situation where you have a legitimately cool image of what could happen, but then you are enforcing this idea that it would only be possible if you advantage on a roll to make it happen. The cool thing is already possible. I don't understand the need for advantage on the roll. Especially since advantage changes nothing if the argument is that the DM won't allow the roll because the animals won't do X. Advantage does not change that.

 

[DeviousQuail]

My own interpretation of how the new Wildshape should be handled. Using the basic idea from the Tasha summoning spells I've put together Sentinel, Predator, and Trickster stat blocks. Each one has a subset of 5 alternatives including sea and air. You choose one each time you wildshape and gain those abilities alongside the normal wildshape stuff.

These aren't perfect but I think they achieve a balance between WotC wants and what fans of wildshaping want. Everything is player facing, the choices are (imo) pretty straightforward, there is a ton of variety, and an easy template to follow for future variants. I'm not worried about the exact numbers presented here. Anything I changed was meant to help simulate what new wildshape stat blocks could look like.

 

[Enrahim2]

Now, yes, Dragons are rarer than just normal animals. But, again, talking to animals and convincing them to do things is something the druid can already do. It is something the Gnome can already do. And they do it. And they rarely fail at it, so why give them advantage? Especially advantage that seems as potentially limited as they currently have it.

Hm, what you write indicate that we have had wildly differing experiences with Druids. It might very well be true that at your table my proposal would indeed not have given any added value, as the druids already actively exploit existing wildlife, and the DM is quite lenient with it. Meanwhile the druids I have played with has at best used their powers to pacify or interrogate local wildlife, while relying on their shapechange, summons and/or animal companion for anything proactive.

And it might be that this highlight the basic problem with fixing the utility side of Druid. My idea was to take something the druid is supposed to be good at, and make sure that this is enhanced beyond what a simple spell does. This in similar vein as the Bard - they have plenty of buffs; but their inspiration dice are still quite unique in what it does. Sure you got guidance, but inspiration gives a bigger boost that also stacks.

Looking at what druids are associated with the main things that come to mind is tankiness, versatility, connection with nature and battlefield control. Tankiness is the moon druid discussion. Versitality is already sort of covered by spells, but was what wild shape previously supercharged. Hence the natural ideas here on the utility side of wild shape has been revolving around how to restore versatility to wild shape. The problem I see is that all these ideas appear to introduce a lot of complexity while still falling way short of what 5ed potentially has. Hence the core of my idea was to see if it migth be possible to radically shange wildshape to support one of the other areas associated with the Druid. I struggle to see how wild shape can be effectively be worked to become an effective battlefield control. Hence my idea about how it could try to reinforce the nature connection aspect.

I realize now from what you are saying that the details of my proposal falls short of what is needed from wild shape, as I do agree that such a prominent class feature should have obvious value above and beyond spells available at the level it is gained at any table. I still think being able to talk to creatures of the same shape as you qualifies as unique due to the added possibilities allowed for with longer term communication, (hours rather than 10 minutes). However I also agree that this alone is not enough to make it "worthwhile". The advantage was as such meant as a way to further boost this feature - but from what you are saying I fully agree that it is too circumstantial; not on in game situations, but on table culture.

The problem is as you point out, the druid spell arsenal is already so formidable that it is hard to see how a class feature can significantly increase their command over nature. Similarly it become quite tricky to increase their level of versatility. After all they are a full caster with access to the full primal spell list to chose from every day. It took basically the ability to replicate any thinkable low level transmutation without preparation to give us the added versatility of the 5ed Druid.

However it might be OB1's approach might be sufficient? It give 5 different overall uses which is definitely more versatile than the 1 provided by the UA. And it hands it out in a way that passes my acceptable complexity filter (as opposed to the trait shopping list approach).

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm not, I just didn't think about what high level features you would get. Happy to replace it with kaiju.

Level 14: chose one more form feature
-gargantuan.
-???

Gargantuan would be fun, might be a bit hard to balance if the elemental damage was kept, but the Druid really does need a better way to become a MONSTER of the forest. I could see putting a lite-regen while in beast form here too. Moon Druids are absolutely calling to Were-beasts and so giving them that iconic recover would be good.

I just.. I really hate Alter Self for the Druid. It gives them nothing that they actually want, since they have better melee attacks and underwater breathing and swimming far sooner, leaving only the ability to become an doppelganger infiltrator which.. is not a druid concept, and especially not their captstone concept.

So regular druids only get utility wild shape? I would be ok with that.

Still wouldn't mind a few THP when changed though. Maybe 2/level.

Or perhaps, when you take damage, you can revert forms as a reaction to gain resistance to that attack.

I like both those options. I think I like the Temp Hp more, because it rewards planning, but I can't get over that "eep, now I'm a mouse and scurrying away" image the other invokes

 

[Chaosmancer]

So the more I've stewed over the idea, the more its probably better to replace the wildshape template with a few core animal statblocks. Put them right int he druid section for the druid to have. And then flavor as apporpriate.

A bear can be a polar bear, hippo, any big 4 legged creature. You can have a horse or deer for your fast animal, a mice or spider for your tiny type animals. You could probably do like 6 small statblocks and call it a day. That's probably cleaner than trying to do a template that starts to get weird when you consider the flavor (since we know what animals look like these, these are fantastical summoned creatures that could look like anything).

You don't need to manually preserve the flavor, and that is the only difference between your version and the route they are taking. People aren't going to be seriously attempting to have rhino's climb sheer cliffs. And if they do, they may want that weird awesomeness, it fits really well for certain tables.

And if it doesn't fit yours... just ask them to pick a different form.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm glad we at least came to understand each other

However it might be OB1's approach might be sufficient? It give 5 different overall uses which is definitely more versatile than the 1 provided by the UA. And it hands it out in a way that passes my acceptable complexity filter (as opposed to the trait shopping list approach).

Something like OB1's design might work. I keep reading it and thinking that something about it doesn't feel right, but I don't know what.

It could be that these forms keep going forward with the idea that Wildshape is the druid's main form of attacking, while not addressing the major problem with them, which is that wildshaping take an Action. Very very very few personal buffs end up being cast or activated as an action. That is why the Devotion Paladin's weapon was changed. Any time you have to take your full action to activate yourself for combat, you are essentially looking at "skip your first turn".

Though, for druids it is a bit weirder, since it would be skip your second turn, since the first turn is spent laying down a spell. I just don't see actual play bearing out that normal druids use wild-shape once combat starts, so making it their primary way to engage with combat feels off to me.

 

[OB1]

I'm glad we at least came to understand each other



Something like OB1's design might work. I keep reading it and thinking that something about it doesn't feel right, but I don't know what.

It could be that these forms keep going forward with the idea that Wildshape is the druid's main form of attacking, while not addressing the major problem with them, which is that wildshaping take an Action. Very very very few personal buffs end up being cast or activated as an action. That is why the Devotion Paladin's weapon was changed. Any time you have to take your full action to activate yourself for combat, you are essentially looking at "skip your first turn".

Though, for druids it is a bit weirder, since it would be skip your second turn, since the first turn is spent laying down a spell. I just don't see actual play bearing out that normal druids use wild-shape once combat starts, so making it their primary way to engage with combat feels off to me.

I think my concept does need some more work (especially on the non combat use for each form), that said, I was thinking about the expected use for each form as I was coming up with it.

Traveler - Activated when hurt early in combat as a way to try and keep a concentration buff up while not taking additional damage
Predator - Activated before combat in dangerous areas, likely will leave the form early in combat (bonus action)
Scout - Out of Combat only
Sentinel - Activate in combat when trying to preserve spell slots or out of combat for group travel (horse, giant eagle, etc)
Goliath - Activate in combat when a large amount of control is desired, or to tank other huge monsters.

 

[mellored]

I'm coming around to the idea that core druid should offer utility only.
-wild shape for travel
-wild shape for scouting
-minor healing
-familiar

And then the sub-class is how you fight.
-combat wildshape
-wild fire AOE
-blossom healing
-summoner

Traveler - Activated when hurt early in combat as a way to try and keep a concentration buff up while not taking additional damage

I'm still not the biggest fan of this, but Traveler needs to have the mounted trait, so someone can ride you.
2 people at level 5, and 3 at level 11, and 4 at 14, and 5 at 17.

Eventually just flying the party around as massive bird would be cool.

 

[OB1]

I'm coming around to the idea that core druid should offer utility only.
-wild shape for travel
-wild shape for scouting
-minor healing
-familiar

And then the sub-class is how you fight.
-combat wildshape
-wild fire AOE
-blossom healing
-summoner


I'm still not the biggest fan of this, but Traveler needs to have the mounted trait, so someone can ride you.
2 people at level 5, and 3 at level 11, and 4 at 14, and 5 at 17.

Eventually just flying the party around as massive bird would be cool.

I like this. And yeah, my traveler is actually more like Prey (as in the opposite of a Predator, meant as a way to escape/stay out of danger) but I couldn't think of a better name for it. But love the idea of a real Traveler template meant to carry more and more people while also gaining swim and fly at higher levels.