D&D 5E What is a Social challenge, anyways?

[GMforPowergamers]

We can assume that whilst important NPCs like Faramir and Denethor have detailed personality profiles, so the DM can fairly judge how they will react, we have to assume that GenericGuard#7 does not. So a skill roll decides. If it fails, the player playing Pippin will have to try something else. Or maybe Faramir dies. Sad, but not really significant for the plot.

having pre written 1-2 sentence ideas for townsfolk/guards/merchants that you can use to inspire these isa HUGE help

Now, the DM could create a personality for GenericGuard#7 on the fly. But this is where there is an issue with player agency. No matter what decisions the player has made, if the DM decides they are having a bad day the attempt fails,

dude it would make my day as a player if they were haveing a bad day... I know what it's like to have a bad day, deal with customers deal with a boss have all this stress... and don't get me started on "go home and relax" it's not like I don't have 99 problems there too..
now all I need to do is talk to them and see if I can find a way to make that day better... that is were insight investigation and hopefully a good DM going with it giives me there motives and there fears... or I flop and roll a 1 and opps make him remember that bard his last girlfriend left him for and I get punched in teh face...

ore they decide they are having a good day, and the attempt succeeds.

great... happy people are easy too... just figure out what they WANT to believe

Only the DM's decisions count, the player's decisions do not matter one jot.

that is the issue... that is why I don't like not having a well rounded social system.... It is PERFECRTLY fine by DMG and even this board to be like "Nope doesn't work no roll"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Is it "the end of the game", though? What does it mean to "win" or "lose" a fight? Are all fights to the death?

not all fights are too the death, you or they can run or surender... but those aren't what I think of as a lose... I guess surender is.

Is retreat a possibility?

by the rules most likely not... in my games always an option unless you have made a series of dumb mistakes and failed a bunch of rolls leading up to this moment.

Even with a TPK, does that preclude the players rolling up a new party (or, indeed, already having multiple characters in the campaign) and keep playing the same adventure?

in this case (in my experence0 99,9% of the times if we TPK it ends that story... we MAY play in the world again but not that story, no "Lets make up the B team and go back into that adventure"
HOWEVER I can't say never... twice, once in 2e and once in 3.5 we Did just that...

the 3.5 one was the most memorable because I could not decided between a warlock (something only 1 person had played in the group so far) or warblade (the class form Bo9S that no one in the groups tried yet) at character creation we were caster heavy so I went Warblade...
game 1 encounter 1 the number 1 came up a lot... on PC dice. the DM at one point (rolling in the open) rolled 3 nat 20's in a row... TPK 6 2nd level character vs 3 orcs and 2 goblins...
So we literally made a new group of pcs (this time I played the warlock idea) and came across our old characters bodies in rout to town.
That game then went Epic and Mahad the warlock got to be over 30th level (I think we stopped at 32 but we might have hit 33 for 1 last session)
but in that case we had not really started the story so there was no "picking up" we just started again...

in 2e it was closer, and it was weird we litterlay had to change around so we could match tteh plot going on...not as memorable, and didn't last as long

 

[Hriston]

In my games, a social challenge is an encounter that poses some kind of obstacle to the party's goals that they attempt to overcome through conversation. I award as much XP for winning a social challenge as I do if the same obstacle is overcome by force.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In my games, a social challenge is an encounter that poses some kind of obstacle to the party's goals that they attempt to overcome through conversation. I award as much XP for winning a social challenge as I do if the same obstacle is overcome by force.

if I had a nickel for everytime my PCs turned a combat encounter into a social, or a social into a combat, I would not be rich, but I could go to a fast food place and get a full meal deal and have change...

remember there is no I in team, but there are 5 I s in "F it I don't care the size of the room I cast fireball"

 

[clearstream]

Of course, this idea also would have opened up the possibility of making moves to get around the direct social conflict such as arranging for Denethor to be taken out and having it look like an accident...

You mean like when the fire mage with the enchanted ring of fire, convinces everyone that Denethor set fire to himself, and then threw himself blazing from the citadel?

It's all true: the hobbit witnessed it.

 

[clearstream]

Now, the DM could create a personality for GenericGuard#7 on the fly. But this is where there is an issue with player agency. No matter what decisions the player has made, if the DM decides they are having a bad day the attempt fails, ore they decide they are having a good day, and the attempt succeeds. Only the DM's decisions count, the player's decisions do not matter one jot.

In such a mode, the players may decide what decisions the DM can make. Thus, their decisions could still matter... even strongly direct the play. The may not get to say what is found out, but they do get to say what is found out about.

Whether that is satisfying really depends on the group.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I can see it would have been a move with high stakes if Denethor had survived to meet Aragorn because we know, from the established fiction, that Denethor doubted Aragorn's claim/suitability. As perspicacious and formidable as Denethor was on many levels, Faramir simply exceeds his old man's intuition and wisdom on the subject of character, meaning he doesn't require a move for him to do the right thing here.

Of course, this idea also would have opened up the possibility of making moves to get around the direct social conflict such as arranging for Denethor to be taken out and having it look like an accident...

Yeah he went crazy and killed himself, my buddy the halfling here saw the whole thing!

 

[DND_Reborn]

but you do seem to be saying it isn't.

Maybe it seems that way to you, but it isn't what I said. I never said the two were mutually exclusive. So...

Way back when Becky ran her first 5e game (been running since we had a series of 5 duchess and baron controlled lands and a capital region controlled by the seneschal. We were working for the king to find out if there was any truth to the rumor that there was a plot to overthrow him… we had to travel to (so sometimes run into random encounters) each region and use out titles and personal power to get an audience and a read on each noble. Some of these had lesser lords in their courts. Some had cleric or arcane caster advisors. All had military power.
At no point in the early game (until we found the master sword lie) did we think our lives were EVER in danger. We still had a lot of RP and skill and even spell use to get through challenges.

That isn't a SC, that is a series of sessions (I would imagine.... maybe it was just one...).

remember there is no I in team

Sure there is...

Do you see it? It is right there...

In case someone doesn't, this will help you:

Spoiler: The i in team

 

[Hussar]

I would like to thank @DND_Reborn for taking my points the spirit I meant and not as some sort of attack on play styles.

A social challenge is just a tool in the kit. And like any tool, it’s utility is specific. It’s not meant to be used for every single social interaction. That would be pointless. Sometimes an ad hoc, freestyle approach is best. Sometimes a more structured approach works better.

As I said earlier, I would hope we see all three approaches outlined in the new DMG. You could leverage BIFTs and the skill system as well as proficiencies and various class ribbons to create a pretty solid 4e style skill challenge system. But then make it REALLY clear that sc’s are not meant to be used every single time either.

A mixed approach is probably best imo.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I would like to thank @DND_Reborn for taking my points the spirit I meant and not as some sort of attack on play styles.

You're welcome. I don't take responses as personal (something I've had to work on, admittedly LOL!) because I prefer to think of them in the spirit of engaging discussion and not attacks.

And I hope, despite my "argumentative" nature, that my responses are taken in kind. If more tools are included in D&D in the future, it is to the benefit of the game as it continues to address the wide range of play styles the game fosters.

To me, D&D is like a tree...

It began as a seed, a concept in some peoples' minds. Nurtured by the rain of imagination, it grew into OD&D, and branched into AD&D and B/X, which branched into BECMI, and so on. Every new mechanic and tool is a new branch, leaf, flower, or fruit.. This tree has had multiple people tending it over the years, from TSR to WotC and many more. 3PP adding their own touches, not to mention the plethora of homebrewers. Each part has its own beauty and value to different people, but I hope we all can appreciate it as a whole, too, and our sessions with each other are the precious time we take to enjoy its shade or shelter, depending on our own personal weather (are we happy or hurting in our lives). Finally, surrounding this tree is the RPG garden, a world of variety and wonder in which we can wander and share with others fantastical adventures. So, I encourage all to enjoy this magical place we have been fortunate enough to find and thank all those who have tended this garden, and make room for many more to join us as it continues to grow.