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D&D 5E What is a Social challenge, anyways?

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
There's more than one RP technique in the world, and not all of them are the antithesis of using dice, that is a narrow view and seems like an excluded middle kind of argument.
Sure, and I never said they were. So... what?

Why would anyone complicate the rather straightforward process of resolving a fight by a single set of opposed rolls by using the apparatus of attack rolls, damage rolls, initiative, combat rounds, etc?
Because the stakes are higher--life or death--continuing to have a PC and not. SC aren't that intense IMO so I don't think they need it.

And FWIW, a while ago a person posted about a way to streamline combat with a system so it could be resolved in just a few rolls, and that was something I helped them with. So, if that is what someone wants to do, they certainly can. Just like I said someone can certainly do SC with several rolls, but since they aren't really as significant, it makes little sense to me to complicate it.

I posted an example on the first page of this thread, of the resolution of a social challenge in 4e D&D using a skill challenge. I think it illustrates why it is more interesting to have the scenario actually unfold via an extended sequence of play.
You might think so, but I disagree. We can leave it at that.

Well, if the GM decides that an NPC won't die, because "the adventure" requires that NPC to be alive, then there is no need for the combat mechanics. I don't think that shows that, in general, combat mechanics are pointless.
No, there are other reasons why is shows the SC mechanics are pointless, in general. ;)

I really hate to do this, at the risk of Godwinning the thread, but, how is this not railroading?
No worries... There is a difference between railroading (giving players no options) and directing them (to work towards the adventure I've created that they want to play). Now, I've had players completely bypass adventures due to their choices, and that's fine, too. I can always use the adventure later at a different location or in a different game.

The results of the player's actions - attempting to get a ride to Port Royal (thank you for that btw, I'd NEVER remember the actual proper noun place :p) are determined, not by the in-game reality, but by the meta-level of the DM's wants and needs. The DM needs the player to walk, so, regardless of anything else, they will walk. No NPC will help them, and they won't even be able to make a check to change that. Or, conversely, the DM needs the player to stop in Haxel, so, again regardless of the players's role playing, they will only get to Haxel.
LOL I'm not quite that heavy-handed. :)

As a DM, I am really uncomfortable inserting myself into the fiction like this. I do consider that to be far too heavy handed and makes me extremely visible to the players. And, frankly, I don't WANT that level of responsibility over the game. I want to be surprised. So, if the players convince someone to take them to Port Royal, then, well, that's what happens. What I, or the adventure I wrote, want does not matter one whit.
Since the DM creates the world and everything in it, so I'm not sure how you don't have that level of responsibility. You decided the NPC was there, didn't you? You decided what DCs to set, right? So, how is that any different from deciding the NPCs won't help -- they are too busy with their own lives or whatever.

As a player, I would be extremely frustrated as well. It's pretty obvious that the DM is road blocking here and forcing results, again, not because of anything the player's did, but, because the DM wants a certain outcome and will simply manipulate the game and, IMO, abuse his authority as DM, to ensure that a specific result will happen.
It's no different than choosing which city to begin an adventure in, what NPCs to present to the PCs, or any other number of things DMs decides.

To me, @D&D_Reborn's three examples that I quoted are 100% the reason as a player and a DM that I want social mechanics. It makes the game far more transparent and allows the game to flow far more organically with everyone's input being taken into account, rather than just the DM feeding the story to the players. OTOH, I've absolutely played with players who 100% would adore @D&D_Reborn's approach. So, there's nothing wrong with it and it's certainly something that players will enjoy.

Just not me.
And that's cool, too. I've met plenty of players and other DMs whose games I know I wouldn't enjoy, either. It is one of the beauties of D&D, that one game can produce so much variety. :)
 

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Personally? Not really. Most of my gaming history, social competence is "invest in this die roll", be it Charisma + Diplomacy, Charisma + Persuasion, the half dozen or so relevant social abilities in OWOD, etc.. When I play, you roleplay, and if the GM decides the NPC wouldn't give you something for nothing, you make a die roll.

And online in forums, for decades, I've seen a lot of DM's who are very resistant to social systems. There's much talk about what players shouldn't be able to get from success, what things should be taken off the table, how DC's are too low and it's too easy for players to succeed. Many claims about wanting social interaction to be more interesting, but most of the actual discussion is how to prevent those dirty, dirty players from getting what they want. The DC's go up, the players bonuses rise, "Bluff is not mind control" because no matter how easy it is to trick people in real life, somehow NPC's cannot be easily beguiled, and eventually you hear horror stories about players who just give up and start using magic to bypass intractable NPC's, lol.
I think pointing out where the problems are helps point out where the solutions are. Here is the system I’ve been using, though other posters have proposed others.

Point 1: In many respects, social systems can be more flexible than combat systems.

I don’t use my social systems for all encounters. You want to haggle with a merchant for a discount? Just roll Persuasion.

Convince the king to abdicate and name you successor? He’s not going to do that. No roll.

Conversely, most DMs don’t skip over an uninteresting combat with a single role, and allow the party to play out several rounds of an unwinnable combat.

Which leads to…

Point 2: when to use a social system.

I only use my social system if it makes sense to spend an hour or more in game on the encounter and if the encounter has several possible interesting outcomes.

Point 3: multiple interesting outcomes

First step is setting out interesting outcomes. Generally, there should be at least three, but I try to aim for four: worst, bad, good, best (I don’t like to use failure or critical failure, because even “worst” can be success at a high cost).

Point 4: the social encounter

As a poster pointed out, combat can use multiple rolls because the stakes on each individual roll is low. I apply this to social encounters as well.

In contrast to combat encounters, I tend to have a set number of rolls for social encounters (depending on the size of the group, 3 or 4 per person). For the sake of simplicity, I set good at the 50th percentile of total rolls, and bad and best at 25th and 75th respectively (you can adjust if necessary, but the main challenge to the players comes from setting DCs).

Unlike 4e, an important point is that failing a roll does not impact overall success, unless your actor’s actions would obviously and immediately do so (like attacking the NPC). This means that even less socially adept PCs can involve themselves, and are in fact often more willing to try unconventional tactics, because they are less likely to succeed with spamming Persuasion rolls.

Point 5: being unconventional

Ahead of time, I identify 6 or 7 skills or tactics that succeed. I also make a note that any clever tactics by the characters has a chance of success (or even counts as an automatic success).

I use some tactics to make multiple rolls less interesting. One, the “anytool” skills (Perception, Insight and Persuasion) tend to have higher DCs than skills that are more specialized (that art critic is a lot more likely to care if you discuss recent developments in the art scene (Performance) than if you simply butter them up).

Here, as a DM, be unconventional. You can, because the individual stakes of each roll are low. In addition to skills, the characters’ tool proficiencies, languages, Background, Personality, Bond, Ideal, Flaw and beliefs can play a role in the social encounter.
 

I remember some years ago, using a monster that had a charm effect that caused the victim to see all of its allies as its most hated enemies and attack them.

The player did so. He was playing a caster. He made sure that every single time he cast any spell, he caught the monster in the effect too, so, while he did attack his allies, he made sure he killed the monster at the same time. While he was absolutely playing the letter of the effect, he was wildly off base about the spirit.
I generally don’t approve of messing with monster traits or other aspects after the fact, but that is one situation where I would be tempted to rule that the affected character’s attacks don’t seem to affect the monster, and leave it vague as to why.
 

Yours is a well-thought-out example, but it also shows the care and detail required to set up; I would say that you put more work into this social challenge than most would for the average combat encounter.
My system is similar to @Quickleaf ’s and I would bring up the following points.

First, because most DMs are more accustomed to setting up combat encounters than social encounters, at first, they will take more time. But as a DM gets experience, they will be able set up social encounters much quicker.

Second, these types of social encounters don’t occur every session, and when they do, they tend to take more time than an equivalent combat encounter, so it is normal that they take tome to prepare. I would analogize them to a boss fight in 5e. Sure, you could just pull out a beholder and throw it at the players, but most DMs think about including lackeys whose powers synergize with the boss, and throw in some interesting environmental or lair effects.
 

That's the way it's meant to work, but some players are roll-happy, soon as their course of action leaves their mouth, that d20 is rolled.
That is neither the DM’s problem nor a social encounter problem. If a player says that they will pull the adamantine door off its hinges with their bare hands and rolls a Strength check, they aren’t going to succeed even on a nat 20.
 


I don’t want a GM who is following me 5 steps behind as I meander aimlessly around their world.
I love that you somehow rephrase free will and player agency as aimless and meander...
I have my world set up, I have a bunch of possible ways for them to go, and if they go for something I DIDN'T plan I have a ton of previous ideas that never got used to try to use as insperation for improv.
Frantically trying to invent on the spot what I come across… nor do I want them having to detail every inn and warehouse in the city just in case I step into it.
Yeah I don't detail every building... in general right now I have most towns having 2-3 important locations (sometimes library sometimes bars sometimes town green, sometimes shops oe guilds) Each of those have 1-3 NPCs each with atleast a sentence but sometimes full back stories... including wants and fears.

Now if they go to someplace or ask about something I don't have preped I have to make it up... but I also have a few back ups in the ideas from other towns that I didin't use
If the GM has a good few scenes in Haxel that will be fun and engaging, maybe advance the meta-plot of the campaign, maybe develop our characters place in the world. Then I have no problem with a wheel falling off our stagecoach in Haxel.
I do... my biggest pet peeve is when I get railroaded to go somewhere... I almost typed out a horror story about just this (not falling off a stage coach but being forced to take a train and being thrown off it at a town half way through the trip) but I decided examples wont help (let me know if it will)
It isn’t railroading to get the PCs to the start of an adventure. It’s a plot hook. There is a responsibility on players to be open to the adventures the DM has written. It sounds like complaining that the DM has gone to the effort of putting together a fun session - because it isn’t exactly when and where you want it to be. If you want that level of control - go be a DM.
I AM the DM most times (But not all... I would say 60-75% of my table time though) and I don't WANT that level of control by defualt... I WANT my players to have choices and for THEM to make them and for those choices to MATTER
 

I think "the adventure the DM has written" wouldn't normally include pre-written outcomes to fights - although I guess it may in a few cases - but probably will include pre-written outcomes to social interactions.
I often have concepts of how both fights and social encounters will end, but they are not set in stone if teh players or the dice go left when I think they will go right...

Example... when I had a lesser villan duke and the PCs went to talk to him I had fully ready for him to sick guards on them and kick them out of his hall... but as soon as he said something they SHOULD have been against one of them said "You know what your right" and both in and out of game that shocked me...

also I have thrown deadly 6+ levels ahead of teh party combat encounters expecting PCs to retreat to watch them win without even blooding half the party... and "free gimmie' goblin encounter tunr into almost TPKs
I'm not 100% sure what you've got in mind as the purpose or outcome ofsocial interactions.
in a perfect world social encounters would be as detailed and supported as one with a combat or one with a puzzel/trap
But I posted some examples upthread. The PCs persuading the Baron to trust them and accept their accusations against his vizier doesn't really depend on unravelling a puzzle. It's more about the extent to which the players are prepared to put their own interests and concerns are on the line.

Or when Thurgon met his brother Rufus, the challenge wasn't to learn what motivated Rufus: it was to try and persuade him to act out of principle rather than acquiescence, by trying to shock him into recognising his own fall into a pathetic state. (In play, it reminded me of some of the scenes involving Saruman in LotR.)
 

That is neither the DM’s problem nor a social encounter problem. If a player says that they will pull the adamantine door off its hinges with their bare hands and rolls a Strength check, they aren’t going to succeed even on a nat 20.
okay I have to do a storyy time...

I had a game (3e) years ago where I put an adamatine bank vault style doorin a dungeon ecpecting PCs to have to do a resident evil style puzzel to open it... The players asked what it was fframesd with and the wall around it... I saw this coming and thought I had an answer "Oh for like three feet on each side its' adamantine"... I didn't catch my mistake untile the cleric with an adamantine weapon said "wait so the 10ft of door, ad 6 more feet 3 on each side floor to cealing?" looking at my map and I knew what came next...
they DID pick the lock (magically) and go in, but on the way out they stopped chipped away at the stone wall for a few days got the door the frame and the wall bits off and cast the spell that turned it into a ribbon (I don't remember name) so THEN my whole party had new metal armor and weapons... opps
 

TheSword

Legend
I love that you somehow rephrase free will and player agency as aimless and meander...
I have my world set up, I have a bunch of possible ways for them to go, and if they go for something I DIDN'T plan I have a ton of previous ideas that never got used to try to use as insperation for improv.

Yeah I don't detail every building... in general right now I have most towns having 2-3 important locations (sometimes library sometimes bars sometimes town green, sometimes shops oe guilds) Each of those have 1-3 NPCs each with atleast a sentence but sometimes full back stories... including wants and fears.

Now if they go to someplace or ask about something I don't have preped I have to make it up... but I also have a few back ups in the ideas from other towns that I didin't use

I do... my biggest pet peeve is when I get railroaded to go somewhere... I almost typed out a horror story about just this (not falling off a stage coach but being forced to take a train and being thrown off it at a town half way through the trip) but I decided examples wont help (let me know if it will)

I AM the DM most times (But not all... I would say 60-75% of my table time though) and I don't WANT that level of control by defualt... I WANT my players to have choices and for THEM to make them and for those choices to MATTER
It’s possible to have some choices matter and some not. It’s possible that the route the party takes doesn’t matter because the first village they come to will hold the adventure if how the party react and interact with adventure absolutely does matter in a critical way. Agency doesn’t need to be 100% for it to be satisfying.

There is no meaningful difference between the party travelling near Haxel triggering the wheel to break on their coach. As there is with you repurposing the adventure designed for Haxel to fit into the later village of Blumpt because the PCs decide to go there and you hadn’t written anything out for Blumpt.

I actually don’t think there is any loss in Agency or indeed any problem with either method unless the decision to go to Blumpt was influenced by what they knew about Haxel or they had taken specific efforts to maintain their coach to avoid a stop in Haxel.

It’s problem to claim one method is good and the other is bad.
 

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