D&D General How would you redo 4e?

[Voadam]

I’ve never seen it that way, IME people didn’t put much into initiative in 3.5 when it was a skill, for instance, and there are always people who don’t train perception in every group I’ve ever seen.

Initiative was a dexterity check but not a skill in 3.5, but there was an improved initiative feat. I saw the feat being taken a lot as a strong feat choice.

 

[James Gasik]

Initiative was a dexterity check but not a skill in 3.5, but there was an improved initiative feat. I saw the feat being taken a lot as a strong feat choice.

It was a skill check in Star Wars Saga, which might be where the confusion is, since that game is very similar to 3.5.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Initiative was a dexterity check but not a skill in 3.5, but there was an improved initiative feat. I saw the feat being taken a lot as a strong feat choice.

Yeah okay I’m thinking if Star Wars Saga then, but either way it’s never been something everyone felt they had to take.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah but DR 4 when you have 20 HP is more valuable than DR 4 when you have 80 HP. You'd need DR 16 to make it work.

Basically, I'm saying that every points between DR 1 and whatever the upper level you want (be it 10 or 16) means a different type of armor.

Then again 5e has 12 different types of armors... but some of them have overlapping worth in terms of AC because of the addition of DEX, with Plate being the only Heavy one you'd be better to go into if you have a Dex of 2 or more. Hmm...

Well I have a frighteningly complex google sheet which does Monte Carlo analysis of all combat engine parameters. What you are saying is partially true, but damage per attack matters. Beyond that, the idea that the nature of combat and value of each sort of equipment or technique/tactic needs to be relatively static from 1 to 30 is not something I am wedded to. But still my game certainly has magic armor, it's just that gargantuan dragons don't worry about armor much! That's a nice feature of the design.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah okay I’m thinking if Star Wars Saga then, but either way it’s never been something everyone felt they had to take.

Yeah there are several feats in 4e that increase init bonus or otherwise make it more effective. None of them are 'must have', though for some classes/builds it's a very useful choice. Others, not so much.

 

[Voidmoji]

It’s a little controversial but I actually would rather PCs only have saves/defense checks, and NPCs have all defense scores.

As in, the players roll to attack vs. the foe's defenses, and when the attack is returned, the player rolls their defenses against the foe's attack score as DC?

 

[Voidmoji]

Exactly! Or some powers for class that usually target AC have the distinction to target other defenses. Like the Rogue power Piercing Strike that look like a basic attack until you realise that it targets Reflex instead of AC.

I quite love the different defenses. I much prefer that than the usual saving throws of the other editions.

Agreed!

While I prefer Damage Reduction to the AC system for most of my games, I really don't want it to replace AC in my D&D-like D20 fantasy. I like that AC is fast and easy, which helps in the more complex fights of 4e.

As for weapons as implements and the issues that they and other cases may cause, I am lucky in that I never had that come up in the 4e I ran. I like the array of four defenses, so I would be unlikely to get rid of one. In my own 4e-like game The Fantasy Engine, I don't even have implements as part of the system. I will need to give it some thought, since it removes some choices that are present in weapons.

 

[Voidmoji]

I’ve never seen it that way, IME people didn’t put much into initiative in 3.5 when it was a skill, for instance, and there are always people who don’t train perception in every group I’ve ever seen.

While do agree that Perception is a very handy skill to have, it wasn't a must get for all characters in my own 4e games, either. As long as a couple of folks have it, you are likely good.

But, as a GM, I am of the mind that you don't lock vital clues and information behind a potential failed skill roll, such as Perception or Insight. If the players need to know something for the game to continue along its normal path, they will find it out one way or another.

I also think that a more robust skill system helps. If you get a wider selection of skills at the start, having most characters with a given skill is less of an issue.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah there are several feats in 4e that increase init bonus or otherwise make it more effective. None of them are 'must have', though for some classes/builds it's a very useful choice. Others, not so much.

Exactly. If you’re optimizing that first strike, init is very important. If not, most of the fight is after your first turn regardless.

As in, the players roll to attack vs. the foe's defenses, and when the attack is returned, the player rolls their defenses against the foe's attack score as DC?

Precisely.

I’d also change a lot of enemies that are meant to hit hard so that they deal some damage on a miss.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I also think that a more robust skill system helps. If you get a wider selection of skills at the start, having most characters with a given skill is less of an issue.

Yeah my game has 3 sets of 12 skills, each with 3 specialties. You get them at chargen in chunks, like your ancestry gives a few ranks, your archetype does too, and upbringing. Then you pick a few freely, and go.

But because you get you’ll want to have 2 ranks in at least a few skills, so you end up trained in about 12-15 of the skills, only having to individually choose maybe 8. You could theoretically have only 9 with all of them at 2 ranks, or have none doubled up and have 18 1-rank skills, but I haven’t seen it happen yet. I’m reworking how much of your archetypes stuff involves choices made inside the archetype, though, so this might get tighter.


Anyway, point is, you can look at your sheet and see at a glance what you’re good at, and it should be around 1/3 of what characters can be good at, but only very good at a few things. It helps players both know who thier character is, and cover a lot of ground without needing to care if everyone has perception (which includes insight).