D&D General How would you redo 4e?

[Red Castle]

First of all there's a 2 point gap between NADs and AC, which is utterly pointless. It was obviously put in with the theory that it corrected for weapon proficiency, but all they needed to do was add implement proficiency that worked the same way instead.

If by NADs you mean Fortitude, Reflex and Will, while going by the formula to create monsters it was effectively usually 2 points less than AC (depending on monster role), in practice, just by looking at monsters from the Monster Manual and Vault, it was more complex than that. NAD were used to give more flavor to creatures. Your creature is skinny but fast? it will have a lower fortitude and higher reflex; mentally strong like a Mind Flayer? expect it to have a strong Will.

Sometimes, it could even go higher than the AC, like an Owlbear with AC20 and Fortitude 22... sometimes much lower, like the Minotaur with AC 24 but a Will of 19. It was interesting because it gave a layer of tactic, trying to find if the creature had a particular weakness. Sometimes you could just guess it by using logic (Kobold probably has a lot of reflex but not a lot of will since they are mostly cowards), sometimes you could make a Nature or Dungeoneering check to see if your character knows that kind of creature.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Reduce the gap between the roles so they aren't "required". For example combat shouldn't grind often if the party doesn't have a striker.

A lot of classes could easily be given class feature options that change thier role.

Take the fighter. If they just do extra damage against marked targets, they pretty much become a striker. If the Barbarian can either get a damage buff or a mark/defender aura, they can be a defender.

The rogue can already almost be built to be a controller, just offer a class feature option that changes sneak attack to apply any one of dazed, blinded, etc rather than extra damage, and add some powers that go even harder into control territory.

Maybe if you choose the controller path as a rogue, SA can apply to multiple enemies of a single power.

Agreed on the bounded accuracy. The power curve is part and parcel of 4e's appeal. I DON'T care to fight the same monsters at level 10 that I did at level 1. And I don't care that the stat blocks isn't an absolute representation of a creature.

I'm perfectly fine if the first time you encounter an Ogre he's a Solo. Then a few levels later, the same Orc (who got away) comes back as an Elite with a friend, then later as part of a group as a regular monster and you finally put him down some more level later when he's just a minion.

You can do that and still have bounded accuracy.

You simply create general rules regarding level differences, like if a creature is ten levels lower than the level of the pc, it gains the minion template, etc.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If by NADs you mean Fortitude, Reflex and Will, while going by the formula to create monsters it was effectively usually 2 points less than AC (depending on monster role), in practice, just by looking at monsters from the Monster Manual and Vault, it was more complex than that. NAD were used to give more flavor to creatures. Your creature is skinny but fast? it will have a lower fortitude and higher reflex; mentally strong like a Mind Flayer? expect it to have a strong Will.

Sometimes, it could even go higher than the AC, like an Owlbear with AC20 and Fortitude 22... sometimes much lower, like the Minotaur with AC 24 but a Will of 19. It was interesting because it gave a layer of tactic, trying to find if the creature had a particular weakness. Sometimes you could just guess it by using logic (Kobold probably has a lot of reflex but not a lot of will since they are mostly cowards), sometimes you could make a Nature or Dungeoneering check to see if your character knows that kind of creature.

And it allowed for the monk to be cool because they are attacking NADS with proficiency.

 

[Red Castle]

And it allowed for the monk to be cool because they are attacking NADS with proficiency.

Exactly! Or some powers for class that usually target AC have the distinction to target other defenses. Like the Rogue power Piercing Strike that look like a basic attack until you realise that it targets Reflex instead of AC.

I quite love the different defenses. I much prefer that than the usual saving throws of the other editions.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's not my issue with Perception.

It's not that it may be used as a defense. It's that treating it the same way as every other skill, when it is clearly FAR AND AWAY the most valuable skill, is a game design issue. When one, and only one, skill is considered "must have" for legit all characters, that's a good sign that it doesn't actually belong in the "skill" category and should be some other kind of thing. Hence, my saying it should become like Initiative. You wouldn't want to make Initiative a skill, because then literally everyone would be pressured to find ways to get that as one of their skills, and anyone who doesn't do that would be at a serious disadvantage relative to those who do.


Whereas I consider this poor design. Skills are a different thing. They should not be used as defenses. The fact that Perception can be seen as one is exactly why it shouldn't be a skill.

Maybe you should try it then, because I don't agree and it's working quite nicely! Perception a good skill, but you are overselling it. Not every PC needs high perception, nor high Athletics, Insight etc. All are useful, but 4e PCs are part of a team and nobody is going to be good at everything.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Exactly! Or some powers for class that usually target AC have the distinction to target other defenses. Like the Rogue power Piercing Strike that look like a basic attack until you realise that it targets Reflex instead of AC.

I quite love the different defenses. I much prefer that than the usual saving throws of the other editions.

It’s a little controversial but I actually would rather PCs only have saves/defense checks, and NPCs have all defense scores.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I would love the NAD with a minor (say 1pt) and then DR to reflect most of it's defense would be great

Sure, you can go that way too.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I could see Armor acting as damage reduction, but the range of numbers you'd need for it to stay competitive would be pretty unwieldy, no?

Unwieldy? Honestly the range is fairly narrow. 4 points of always-on DR is pretty significant. This design also puts a better limit on multi-attacks. In my game getting more than 5 points is hard, though at high level the numbers go up some. Mythic grade PCs are not well tested but I think the very upper limit is about 10 points before things get weird.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's not that it may be used as a defense. It's that treating it the same way as every other skill, when it is clearly FAR AND AWAY the most valuable skill, is a game design issue. When one, and only one, skill is considered "must have" for legit all characters, that's a good sign that it doesn't actually belong in the "skill" category and should be some other kind of thing. Hence, my saying it should become like Initiative. You wouldn't want to make Initiative a skill, because then literally everyone would be pressured to find ways to get that as one of their skills, and anyone who doesn't do that would be at a serious disadvantage relative to those who do.

I’ve never seen it that way, IME people didn’t put much into initiative in 3.5 when it was a skill, for instance, and there are always people who don’t train perception in every group I’ve ever seen.

 

[Undrave]

Unwieldy? Honestly the range is fairly narrow. 4 points of always-on DR is pretty significant. This design also puts a better limit on multi-attacks. In my game getting more than 5 points is hard, though at high level the numbers go up some. Mythic grade PCs are not well tested but I think the very upper limit is about 10 points before things get weird.

Yeah but DR 4 when you have 20 HP is more valuable than DR 4 when you have 80 HP. You'd need DR 16 to make it work.

Basically, I'm saying that every points between DR 1 and whatever the upper level you want (be it 10 or 16) means a different type of armor.

Then again 5e has 12 different types of armors... but some of them have overlapping worth in terms of AC because of the addition of DEX, with Plate being the only Heavy one you'd be better to go into if you have a Dex of 2 or more. Hmm...