D&D General Dice Fudging and Twist Endings

[ilgatto]

So. Do you agree, then, that a vital component of fudging is that it must be kept forever secret from the players? That they would, in all likelihood, become upset if it were discovered?

Upset, no.

I'd argue that part of the mystique of the game is venting the notion that the rules are there for everyone to adhere to. I think that adds a certain realism to the game, which, imo, cannot be the case if a DM sort of wings it as, for example, combat is played out. Such can make the players believe that they have no agency at all and that they are the mercy of the DM, which I, for one, do not like being.

As to whether die-rolls are fudged or not, I think most people at the table will realize that it does happen but that the contract between players and DM is also what determines how and when the latter fudges the dice. In practice, this means that I think that the rules apply always and everywhere, without exception, and that everybody keeps their mouth shut in suspicious situations lest the construct of suspension of disbelief comes crashing down.

Consequently, I never fudge the dice.

As a matter of fact, very few dice are rolled in my (2E) games other than in combat and for such things as Thieves' skills. Also, even if I would fudge die-rolls, I would only ever do so to the advantage of the PCs, for I do firmly adhere to the belief that I, as the DM, must be the first to stick to the rules, if only because I do not like lying and want to be able to look myself in the eye when I have to answer a question.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I don't see them as any different. Neither in purpose nor consequence.

Drawing a distinction feels like very explicitly saying "this part is a board game, and it does X" and then saying, "this part is story, and it does Y" and not expecting the two to have a united mission.

I think we're talking past each other slightly - perhaps we are approaching from different perspectives.

If we are talking about the revelation of story secrets and dice fudging after a session, I believe we're in agreement that both could be considered in poor taste. The former potentially just being annoying and the latter potentially leading to disillusionment, to use your word.

If we are talking about the revelation of story secrets and dice fudging during a session... well there's a real difference there. I mean, part of game play is the uncovering of story secrets by the players via their PCs. Now, if a DM is just telling the players every secret, well, there's not much of a game, so we can toss that out of the discussion. If the players discover these story secrets through clever play and/or picking up on clues and/or through appropriate dice rolls, I think they'd be pleased. Meanwhile, if the players discover dice fudging on the part of the DM, the discovery of which is a big no no spelled out in the 5e DMG, I think they'd be less than pleased in many cases (the exception being if fudging was discussed as part of the table rules in Session 0, I suppose).

 

[Oofta]

Upset? No.

Disillusioned? Probably. However, many players don't have a positive experience when they learn how the sausage is made. That's why you don't tell them when you reskin an earth elemental as the powered-up form of the kobold priest. And why you don't list all the treasure that the players neglected to find. Or tell the players that the NPC that they were certain was a sinister agent was really an agent from their mentor trying to aid them. Or that the "cursed" sword they were carrying around was a sentient +5 holy avenger trying to get the paladin to touch it for 6 seconds.

The fact that a DM should keep secrets should not be mistaken as a reason to condemn different DMing styles.

While I agree there is no one true way, I prefer that the DM not fudge. In addition, a lot of times the players can tell even if the DM is being secretive.

I just view changing the result of the roll of a dice or changing things mid combat as completely different from not telling the players everything. Using an existing monster instead of making my own? Something I do on a fairly regular basis (along with modifying monsters). The players know I do that and I don't know why they would care. The role of the opponent is the important thing, not the rules implementation.

But for me? All rolls in the open, thanks. Let the dice fall where they will.

 

[Krachek]

Upset? No.

Disillusioned? Probably. However, many players don't have a positive experience when they learn how the sausage is made. That's why you don't tell them when you reskin an earth elemental as the powered-up form of the kobold priest. And why you don't list all the treasure that the players neglected to find. Or tell the players that the NPC that they were certain was a sinister agent was really an agent from their mentor trying to aid them. Or that the "cursed" sword they were carrying around was a sentient +5 holy avenger trying to get the paladin to touch it for 6 seconds.

The fact that a DM should keep secrets should not be mistaken as a reason to condemn different DMing styles.

A DM should know what to hide and what to tell.
Hide your tricks and short cut, but don’t sink your plot and brilliant idea.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I'm of the opinion that many DMs who loudly and proudly talking about letting the dice fall where they may, are just doing so to better sell the illusion of danger to those around them who hear it.

 

[Oofta]

I'm of the opinion that many DMs who loudly and proudly talking about letting the dice fall where they may, are just doing so to better sell the illusion of danger to those around them who hear it.

Some people just prefer rolling the dice whichever side of the DM's screen they're on.

[edited for clarity]

 

[AnotherGuy]

Some people just prefer rolling the dice whichever side of the DM's I'm on.

Did you mean "whichever side of the table I'm on"? It's the only way I can make sense of your reply which I don't disagree with.

 

[iserith]

I'm of the opinion that many DMs who loudly and proudly talking about letting the dice fall where they may, are just doing so to better sell the illusion of danger to those around them who hear it.

Or they play in a way where there's no incentive to fudge so it doesn't ever happen.

 

[Clint_L]

I'm of the opinion that many DMs who loudly and proudly talking about letting the dice fall where they may, are just doing so to better sell the illusion of danger to those around them who hear it.

There’s no pride in it. It just makes my games better. And there’s no illusion: when you roll your dice openly along with the players, each roll has real stakes.

Again, that’s just what I find at my games. Everyone has their own thing, and what’s best is what makes your games the most fun. If that involves fudging or open rolling, then that’s what you should do. I’m not judging.

Also, if I had any kind of poker face I might feel differently. I physically blush when I seriously try to lie, and my stammer sometimes resurfaces too. It’s not pretty.

 

[Imaculata]

I'm of the opinion that many DMs who loudly and proudly talking about letting the dice fall where they may, are just doing so to better sell the illusion of danger to those around them who hear it.

There's no illusion of danger in my games. I straight up tell my players what the consequences of my next roll could be, and then roll it right in front of them, out in the open.

For example:

At one point in my campaign, an undead pirate helt a blade to the throat of a poor bar maiden, and threatened to kill her. One of the players chose to try and disarm the undead with a spell, before he could kill her. So I straight up told the players:

"Roll for initiative. If the undead goes first, she dies. If YOU are first, you still have to succeed at a disarm check, and she could still die. Roll the die!"

And then we both rolled out in the open simultaneously. The whole group could see what the outcome was right on the spot. That is not an illusion of danger. That is very real, very FAIR danger. Knowing the DM will accept the outcome, without knowing the outcome of the dice yet, heightens tension and excitement. No hidden rolls, no hidden outcomes. Everything out in the open.