D&D (2024) Fighter brainstorm

[mellored]

You mean like a 'simple' class swinging a sword blandly and repeatedly ad nauseum?

It's a little different with effects.

DM: a goblin blinds you and hides. You have no idea where he is.
PC: I dodge.
DM: a goblin blinds you and hides.
PC: dodge
DM: a goblin blinds you and hides.
PC: how often can it do this?
DM: at-will.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I like the 4e exploits, but I could live with the 3.5/5e maneuvers

Thats the thing... imagine you take the warlock 1 per short rest at 1st 2 at 2nd though 10th... they level at half level. At level one your options are "use a slot to make the next target you hit before the end of this round make a save or be disarmed" then another that trips, another that causes a -1d4 deebuff on saves. then have one that deals +1d10 damage. but have them scale at level 3,5,7,9 like spells do. Have one that allows you to make 2 attacks but they have to be against diffrent targets... but at 3rd level they can be against the same and at 5th you can make 3 attacks but only 2 against one target and at 7th all 3 can go to one target and at 9th you can make 4 attacks but 1 must be against another target...... have one be commander strike. The commander strike and the extra damage one totally scale easily enought... have one that inspires to heal the way healing word for a cleric does.
At level 2 those invocations are super easy... one could give you 2 trained skills in a thematic set (investigation and insight, or insight and perception or athletics and acrobatics) one that grants an off stat attack "use wis instead of str/dex or what ever' one that lets you have unarmed def... one that once per day lets you use a slot to duplicate a cool 1st or 2nd level spell.

In a slightly different vein, for a warlock, EB+Agonizing Invocation+warlock spell list takes care of your contribution to combat pretty well, so your invocations can cover out of combat stuff (pretty much any invocation with the phrase "without using a spell slot" in it). There could be something similar for fighters where there could be some out of combat "martial invocations" that might be helpful if you were playing something like Keys from the Golden Vault where combat, while important when it does happen, doesn't happen that much.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In a slightly different vein, for a warlock, EB+Agonizing Invocation+warlock spell list takes care of your contribution to combat pretty well, so your invocations can cover out of combat stuff (pretty much any invocation with the phrase "without using a spell slot" in it). There could be something similar for fighters where there could be some out of combat "martial invocations" that might be helpful if you were playing something like Keys from the Golden Vault where combat, while important when it does happen, doesn't happen that much.

yea I agree

 

[Scott Christian]

I would like to keep a 'simple' fighter like the champion for people that are more casual in play. Maybe add some options to choose at certain levels such as having 3rd level be a choice between improved critical and a couple other things. This may add some variety.

This.

There is one thing I would like to add to this comment, and it is not meant to offensive. It's meant to be just a different viewpoint.

Players playing fighters like the champion, are most often not "casual." And I would argue, the champion is far from "simple." Experienced players like the champion because it allows freedoms that are not tied directly to their combat skillset. The versatility of a champion during combat seems much more extensive to me than the druid, paladin, or other so called complex classes. It uses more out of the box thinking because you do not have your traditional go to power.

 

[Garthanos]

Experienced players like the champion because it allows freedoms that are not tied directly to their combat skillset.

Freedom to do what exactly... I mean they have fewer tools to be imaginative with you sound like the people that said literacy and writing were bad because people would stop remembering things if they can write it down.

The versatility of a champion during combat seems much more extensive to me than the druid, paladin, or other so called complex classes. It uses more out of the box thinking because you do not have your traditional go to power.

Yup them other character types cannot use their imagination its completely impossible. /sarcasm

 

[FitzTheRuke]

This.

There is one thing I would like to add to this comment, and it is not meant to offensive. It's meant to be just a different viewpoint.

Players playing fighters like the champion, are most often not "casual." And I would argue, the champion is far from "simple." Experienced players like the champion because it allows freedoms that are not tied directly to their combat skillset. The versatility of a champion during combat seems much more extensive to me than the druid, paladin, or other so called complex classes. It uses more out of the box thinking because you do not have your traditional go to power.

I agree. I like "simple" classes and subclasses like the Champion Fighter for two reasons: 1) It makes me come up with who this character is, rather than what this character does. (IE makes me roleplay more); and 2) I'm more likely to play with feats and other options to "top up" its abilities with things I don't usually see in play.

Oh, and 3) It all easily fits on one piece of paper in a font size I can see.

Freedom to do what exactly... I mean they have fewer tools to be imaginative with you sound like the people that said literacy and writing were bad because people would stop remembering things if they can write it down.

Yup them other character types cannot use their imagination its completely impossible. /sarcasm

You can probably lay off with the sarcasm and be more charitable to your fellow posters. Scott's just saying why we like the Champion fine, not dismissing other classes.

 

[Sacrosanct]

This.

There is one thing I would like to add to this comment, and it is not meant to offensive. It's meant to be just a different viewpoint.

Players playing fighters like the champion, are most often not "casual." And I would argue, the champion is far from "simple." Experienced players like the champion because it allows freedoms that are not tied directly to their combat skillset. The versatility of a champion during combat seems much more extensive to me than the druid, paladin, or other so called complex classes. It uses more out of the box thinking because you do not have your traditional go to power.

Yep. I think a good analogy is to look at new players or kids and how they play. They don't know all the rules so they don't have pre-conceived notions on what you can or can't do. They just make stuff up on the fly. It's like how we did it in the old days (and still do, for many of us). Just because a class is mechanically simpler doesn't mean it's played simpler. You can do/attempt everything a battlemaster can do, but you just do it narratively or with a simple ability check or something.

I think the group of folks who seem to think you can't do something unless there's a rule for it are doing the class (and its fans) a disservice by that assumption. And before someone chimes in, no "mother may I" typically isn't a problem because most of us play with average to decent DMs and in over 40 years of playing, I can only think of one time where a DM wanted to dictate what players could do unreasonably.

This assumption that a champion fighter can't do anything needs to die in fire, IMO, because it's totally false. Don't confuse my position here with one that is against complex fighters or rules (more power to them). Just because I'm defending the champion doesn't mean I'm attacking the battlemaster.

 

[Garthanos]

You can probably lay off with the sarcasm and be more charitable to your fellow posters. Scott's just saying why we like the Champion fine, not dismissing other classes.

Sounds like dismissing the players of other classes as being impaired or unimaginative which is crazy given how flexible spells are in 5e. ... the irony I see is those with the highest out of the box power are also given more flexible tools. Its that lack of versatility that is most often complained about wrt the fighter.

This is saying It isn't a real problem it's the players problem for not being more imaginative or thinking outside the box. I call it a bit of victim blamin

I see the entire premise of their I like the champion just the way it is, brought up here in this thread? Seems like another oh you other people should not get anything more. This sure seemed like what happened to the 5e playtest fighter.

If we took all spells from casters and stripped them down to nothing over level 2 don't worry you can still up cast that should be good enough right? ... that is what the battlemaster feels like happened to it.

 

[Incenjucar]

The whole "just use your imagination!" thing requires that the game not have actual rules for all of these fictions because the fiction works in both directions.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Sounds like dismissing the players of other classes as being impaired or unimaginative which is crazy given how flexible spells are in 5e. ... the irony I see is those with the highest out of the box power are also given more flexible tools. Its that lack of versatility that is most often complained about wrt the fighter.

This is saying It isn't a real problem it's the players problem for not being more imaginative or thinking outside the box. I call it a bit of victim blamin

I see the entire premise of their I like the champion just the way it is, brought up here in this thread? Seems like another oh you other people should not get anything more. This sure seemed like what happened to the 5e playtest fighter.

If we took all spells from casters and stripped them down to nothing over level 2 don't worry you can still up cast that should be good enough right? ... that is what the battlemaster feels like happened to it.

I don't see anything at all like any of that in the post you quoted. Just "I like the Champion because it can do X" which does not in any way imply that "Other classes are incapable of X" or that "People who play other classes aren't interested in or are incapable of X".

If there's other posts to that effect, I missed them. I admit, I haven't recently read through this thread.