D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

[GMforPowergamers]

It's not about "the economy". The trouble is how PCs turn into a failed comic book character at no cost no themselves & the completely implausible results if the GM doesn't inflict a documented motivation problem on their campaign.

okay I am not understanding this...

I mean if I through around PP everywhere I guess I could see it, maybe. The thing is sooner or later if I did that every shop every town i WOULD sooner or later run out of platinum. but if every few days I throw some crazy number at someone it will last me forever anyway AND it wont crash any economies...

if you think this is bad you should see what we do with magic items... Oh our 11th level party has a dozen unclaaimed items (like weapons we don't use or armors no one uses or anything we just don't attune to) lets go give them to town gaurd... or more then once 'tribes"

in a game I played about 6ish years ago we had a bunch of daggers and shortswords that were plus 1... we all kept 1 as 'back up weapon' then they just sat in a haversack. When we found out about a kobold problem we negotiated a truce between teh town and the kobolds then out fitted them with +1 weapons

 

[Digdude]

okay I am not understanding this...

I mean if I through around PP everywhere I guess I could see it, maybe. The thing is sooner or later if I did that every shop every town i WOULD sooner or later run out of platinum. but if every few days I throw some crazy number at someone it will last me forever anyway AND it wont crash any economies...

if you think this is bad you should see what we do with magic items... Oh our 11th level party has a dozen unclaaimed items (like weapons we don't use or armors no one uses or anything we just don't attune to) lets go give them to town gaurd... or more then once 'tribes"

in a game I played about 6ish years ago we had a bunch of daggers and shortswords that were plus 1... we all kept 1 as 'back up weapon' then they just sat in a haversack. When we found out about a kobold problem we negotiated a truce between teh town and the kobolds then out fitted them with +1 weapI jus

 

[Digdude]

I just want to be clear, that I'm not judging you or how you play at your table, only what my response as DM would be for flaunting that much loot, whether its gold, magic items, or whatever. You are the money guy, so I would like to see you explain how if Bill Gates went to a small rural town in the middle of nowhere and dropped a 5 million dollars in the dinners, bars, retail shops, and just cleaned them out buying everything, how that would have no negative effects to everyone else there.

 

[tetrasodium]

1okay I am not understanding this...

I mean if I through around PP everywhere I guess I could see it, maybe. The thing is sooner or later if I did that every shop every town i WOULD sooner or later run out of platinum. but if every few days I throw some crazy number at someone it will last me forever anyway AND it wont crash any economies...

if you think this is bad you should see what we do with magic items... Oh our 11th level party has a dozen unclaaimed items (like weapons we don't use or armors no one uses or anything we just don't attune to) lets go give them to town gaurd... or more then once 'tribes"

in a game I played about 6ish years ago we had a bunch of daggers and shortswords that were plus 1... we all kept 1 as 'back up weapon' then they just sat in a haversack. When we found out about a kobold problem we negotiated a truce between teh town and the kobolds then out fitted them with +1 weapons

It's not about NPC (de/in)flation. The problem is the actual impacts in play. Earlier I linked to pg115 from the 2e dmg because it explains why "I could give out less (or no) gold & treasure sure, but giving out too little of that comes with a high cost documented at least as early as the 2e dmg." is just trading one problem for another.

I don't know if you are trying to stick to something else like (de/in)flation of NPC economy or whatever rather than the impact of loot-in with deliberate zero need in the system for that loot-out while still designing for the expectation of loot as a motivator (as documented on 2edmg pg 115).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I just want to be clear, that I'm not judging you or how you play at your table, only what my response as DM would be for flaunting that much loot, whether its gold, magic items, or whatever.

and I am explaining why someone that has a financial background doesn't see it the same way.

You are the money guy, so I would like to see you explain how if Bill Gates went to a small rural town in the middle of nowhere and dropped a 5 million dollars in the dinners, bars, retail shops, and just cleaned them out buying everything, how that would have no negative effects to everyone else there.

except that ISN'T what happened in either example... so I don't know where you are getting it... I left a huge tip and made a huge donation... both of witch I CAN tell you will only effect a small amount and even then will equalize after a small bump.

At no point did I

dropped a 5 million dollars in the dinners, bars, retail shops, and just cleaned them out buying everything,

I bought a normal amount of food and asked for some help from a church... I then said "here is a big lump of money have fun"

When movie stars go to small little towns you can look it up it is totally normal fir some big star to walk into a returant buy a big (but still normal big) meal then tip 5,000% of that bill... it doesn't destroy the towns economy (it does change someones life though) as for donating to the church I PROMISE you it would take no time to find real life examples...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It's not about NPC (de/in)flation. The problem is the actual impacts in play.

okay so lets talk impact of play... in two of the last 4 towns we visisted I dropped big money, but 1 of it was a donation to a church.

so what did I really effect? A church has more money to do with as they please and a small buisness (tavern/inn owner) is now rich.

Earlier I linked to pg115 from the 2e dmg because it explains why "I could give out less (or no) gold & treasure sure, but giving out too little of that comes with a high cost documented at least as early as the 2e dmg." is just trading one problem for another.

I mean that is only limitedly useful here... 2e money and magic items were no where NEAR as generus as 5e (that I remember).
I'm not going to say I never had a bunch of money or some items we didn't need... but far less often. and when it was there were way less likely to be genric +x weapons and enough gold to be a king.

I don't know if you are trying to stick to something else like (de/in)flation of NPC economy or whatever rather than the impact of loot-in with deliberate zero need in the system for that loot-out while still designing for the expectation of loot as a motivator (as documented on 2edmg pg 115).

again, loot has not been a motivation for me or my buddies at all.


when we TRY to use loot as a motive we fall into "After a few adventures why not retire richer then most kingdoms"

If I take the idea that my character wants to be rich, and I have enough to buy a house, a farm, a bar and an inn (bar and inn are two different establishments) and pay wages so I don't have to work any of them for 5 years AND still afford a high or luxury life style during that time, why am I risking my life anymore?

Now this gets worse if you add in magic items

 

[Digdude]

me, I don't.

every longish campaign ends with players having dragon hoards worth of GP.

I also as a player just throw money around... last saterday we went to a temple of a god of knowledge and magic to ask for info... when we left I dropped 2,000 pp. a few weeks before I bough the rooms and drinks for the night and tipped 100pp to the bar

You dropped 2,000pp in a town that probably does not see that in a several years income combined income. Yet see no problem. I dont think there is much more to discuss. Back to why wizards need fixin.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You dropped 2,000pp in a town that probably does not see that in a several years income combined income.

1 person... 1 person there is now rich (well I guess 1 family since it was a father mother and daughter) so what... they can spend money, but then it's gone and circulating...

like leaving a 5k tip for a waitress that doesn't make $300 a week

Yet see no problem.

no, I don't. the family can retire, or can buy a bunch of stuff or can do some mix there of... most likely (my bet) is they will no longer JUST own this bar/inn but will end up moving to the big city about 2 days away and become aristocrats.

I dont think there is much more to discuss. Back to why wizards need fixin.

I don't think you understand that we HAVE real life examples of this... lets make this SUPER easy. power ball. Have you ever seen the powerball get up to a billion $$$? do you know how many economies collapse or small towns are ruined by 1 person winning billions?

I don't as a rule play lotto (unless I am depressed) but when it gets close to the B word I do go in with some office workers and we buy a bunch of tickets (TBH more of a "i;ll be damned if I am the only one not getting rich if lightning strikes) but even if an entire office staff hits it doesn't destroy economies...

 

[Digdude]

1 person... 1 person there is now rich (well I guess 1 family since it was a father mother and daughter) so what... they can spend money, but then it's gone and circulating...

like leaving a 5k tip for a waitress that doesn't make $300 a week

no, I don't. the family can retire, or can buy a bunch of stuff or can do some mix there of... most likely (my bet) is they will no longer JUST own this bar/inn but will end up moving to the big city about 2 days away and become aristocrats.

I don't think you understand that we HAVE real life examples of this... lets make this SUPER easy. power ball. Have you ever seen the powerball get up to a billion $$$? do you know how many economies collapse or small towns are ruined by 1 person winning billions?

I don't as a rule play lotto (unless I am depressed) but when it gets close to the B word I do go in with some office workers and we buy a bunch of tickets (TBH more of a "i;ll be damned if I am the only one not getting rich if lightning strikes) but even if an entire office staff hits it doesn't destroy economies...

But there are plenty of cases where that much money does ruin the person and their immediate family from theft, scammers, or just the implosion of having that much money and not know how to handle it. What we dont have extant examples of is what would happen if you showed up in a dark ages English town and dropped 20,000 gp at an inn. Either the local lord is coming to visit you for a donation, or the locals are going to try and get your money. Again, I'm ready to agree to disagree and move back to the topic on hand. Thanks for keeping it civil.

 

[Incenjucar]

D&D economics are not concrete enough to have an obvious outcome beyond "now they are targeted by thieves and dragons". The DM can choose to create an issue, but they can also just shrug and move on.