D&D (2024) Fighter brainstorm

[Incenjucar]

This mind-freeing lack of limitations should belong to all character types equally.

 

[Scott Christian]

This mind-freeing lack of limitations should belong to all character types equally.

It does. As stated in my post.

It is not equal because most players' minds look to their character's abilities. Thus, giving them a roadmap to what to do.

 

[Incenjucar]

It does. As stated in my post.

It is not equal because most players' minds look to their character's abilities. Thus, giving them a roadmap to what to do.

So we should help spellcasters be free by removing powers.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Let's give all players the freedom to have their DM not allow them to do things.

 

[Azzy]

my argument is that these are basic actions in a fight anyone should be able to do, they ought to be codified better, my secondary point is that as a specialist of martial combat the fighter should be better at these sorts of combat techniques.

Preach on! Even 2e codified many maneuvers in The Complete Fighter's Handbook and Player's Option: Combat & Tactics. Heck, BECMI/RC had weapon mastery that granted access to special maneuvers for the different weapons. 3e/3.5 had combat maneuvers (though you sucked at them unless you had a feat). 4e I didn't play, but from everything I've heard, it did right by the Fighter. 5e is the first edition of the game since 1e that doesn't have codified combat maneuvers and that's my biggest complaint about 5e.

we don't need a 'simple class' maybe we ought to have simple options for various classes but the 'fighter needs to be the simple easy class for newbies' attitude needs to go die in a hole IMO.

As a person that has loved playing fighters in previous editions, I'm so sick of Fighters taking the stick to appease this aberrant idea that fighters need to be, as you say, the "simple easy class for newbies". It seems like all of the people calling for the fighter to be this way aren't newbies and likely have no clue what newbies actually want from a fighter class.

The issue that needs addressing is why the battlemaster misses the mark. Not enough moves? Not usable often enough?

Not enough maneuvers. No level-appropriate maneuvers beyond the first tier. The maneuvers are cordoned off to a single subclass instead of simply being available to the baseline fighter.

 

[Minigiant]

Not enough maneuvers. No level-appropriate maneuvers beyond the first tier. The maneuvers are cordoned off to a single subclass instead of simply being available to the baseline fighter.

The overall core issue with maneuvers is that the D&D community is so old and so big that it can' agree on what weapons combat looks like past level6/EarlyTier2.

With magic, most things are spells you can categorize the effects. With monks in martial arts, there is a normal progression of how things look in martial arts media.

But with weapons combat, there are too many genre.And everyone does agree on which on. Hence the abstraction and MMI.

Essentially you would to use branching lists instead of a global list or separate schools like TOB of A5e.

1. Tier 1 Maneuvers
   • Fighters as Trained Warrior
     • Maneuvers are Additional Attack options
2. Tier 2 Maneuvers
   • Fighter as Elite Warrior
     • Maneuvers are Stronger versions of Additional Attack options
   • Fighter as Mighty Warrior
     • Maneuvers are displays of higher Ability scores
   • Fighter as Weapon Specialist
     • Maneuvers are new Additional Attack options
3. Tier 3 Maneuvers
   • Fighter as Action Star
     • Maneuvers are Additional Actions and Attacks
   • Fighter as Blessed Birth
     • Maneuvers are expression of the specialness of the individual fighter
   • Fighter as Magically Armored Tank with Magic Weapons
     • Maneuvers are Additional Applications of Magical Weapons and Armor
   • Fighter as Lord
     • Fighter gets Henchman
   • Fighter as Weaponmaster ("Eastern")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and slightly defying reality
   • Fighter as Weaponmaster ("Western")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and slightly defying the game mechanics
4. Tier 4 Maneuvers
   • Fighter as Action Star
     • Maneuvers are Additional Actions and Attacks
   • Fighters are Demigods
     • Manuevers are superpowers born of specialness or outside forces
   • Fighter as Magically Armored Tank with Artifact and Legendary Weapons
     • Maneuvers are Additional Applications of Artifact and Legendary Weapons and Armor
   • Fighter as Great Lord
     • Fighter gets Advanced Henchman
   • Fighter as Weapon Grandmaster ("Eastern")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and openly defying reality
   • Fighter as Weapon Grandmaster ("Western")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and blatantly defying the game mechanic

Basically, before you introduce magic, runes, psionics or whatever, the Fighter is already the stand in for at least 6 different types of warrior advancements.

 

[Pauln6]

The overall core issue with maneuvers is that the D&D community is so old and so big that it can' agree on what weapons combat looks like past level6/EarlyTier2.

With magic, most things are spells you can categorize the effects. With monks in martial arts, there is a normal progression of how things look in martial arts media.

But with weapons combat, there are too many genre.And everyone does agree on which on. Hence the abstraction and MMI.

Essentially you would to use branching lists instead of a global list or separate schools like TOB of A5e.

1. Tier 1 Maneuvers
   • Fighters as Trained Warrior
     • Maneuvers are Additional Attack options
2. Tier 2 Maneuvers
   • Fighter as Elite Warrior
     • Maneuvers are Stronger versions of Additional Attack options
   • Fighter as Mighty Warrior
     • Maneuvers are displays of higher Ability scores
   • Fighter as Weapon Specialist
     • Maneuvers are new Additional Attack options
3. Tier 3 Maneuvers
   • Fighter as Action Star
     • Maneuvers are Additional Actions and Attacks
   • Fighter as Blessed Birth
     • Maneuvers are expression of the specialness of the individual fighter
   • Fighter as Magically Armored Tank with Magic Weapons
     • Maneuvers are Additional Applications of Magical Weapons and Armor
   • Fighter as Lord
     • Fighter gets Henchman
   • Fighter as Weaponmaster ("Eastern")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and slightly defying reality
   • Fighter as Weaponmaster ("Western")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and slightly defying the game mechanics
4. Tier 4 Maneuvers
   • Fighter as Action Star
     • Maneuvers are Additional Actions and Attacks
   • Fighters are Demigods
     • Manuevers are superpowers born of specialness or outside forces
   • Fighter as Magically Armored Tank with Artifact and Legendary Weapons
     • Maneuvers are Additional Applications of Artifact and Legendary Weapons and Armor
   • Fighter as Great Lord
     • Fighter gets Advanced Henchman
   • Fighter as Weapon Grandmaster ("Eastern")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and openly defying reality
   • Fighter as Weapon Grandmaster ("Western")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and blatantly defying the game mechanic

Basically, before you introduce magic, runes, psionics or whatever, the Fighter is already the stand in for at least 6 different types of warrior advancements.

Very good analysis. Xena was technically a martial character (although she was revealed to have some supernatural monk-like abilities and was retconned to have learned rune magic at one point as well) but she was clearly performing feats that were physically impossible. Also, I just watched the D&D movie and the way Holga uses anything to hand to fight with is hugely entertaining without being too blatantly unrealistic.

Even a random table of combat effects for fighters a bit like wild the wild magic table would make things more interesting but would probably need to be max once per round due to slowing down the game with multiple attacks. Or limit it to blows when you inflict 10% or more of remaining hp in one hit (a significant advantage as the battle goes your way), or if your blow takes the target below 50% of their full hp for the first time, or when you use heroic inspiration. There might be quite a few simple options that could make fights a bit more varied.

 

[James Gasik]

Preach on! Even 2e codified many maneuvers in The Complete Fighter's Handbook and Player's Option: Combat & Tactics. Heck, BECMI/RC had weapon mastery that granted access to special maneuvers for the different weapons. 3e/3.5 had combat maneuvers (though you sucked at them unless you had a feat). 4e I didn't play, but from everything I've heard, it did right by the Fighter. 5e is the first edition of the game since 1e that doesn't have codified combat maneuvers and that's my biggest complaint about 5e.


As a person that has loved playing fighters in previous editions, I'm so sick of Fighters taking the stick to appease this aberrant idea that fighters need to be, as you say, the "simple easy class for newbies". It seems like all of the people calling for the fighter to be this way aren't newbies and likely have no clue what newbies actually want from a fighter class.


Not enough maneuvers. No level-appropriate maneuvers beyond the first tier. The maneuvers are cordoned off to a single subclass instead of simply being available to the baseline fighter.

I was just playing AD&D again with my Fighter, and I had forgotten just how much fun the various maneuvers in the Fighter's Handbook were once you have a low enough Thac0; I won a duel against an enemy knight despite them being technically superior to me (by dearth of higher Strength) just by going first (thanks to my Short Sword of Quickness) and using my first attack to Expert Disarm to drop his magic sword 12' behind me...then doing the same thing to his backup weapon the next turn, and then making Called Shots to face (he was wearing an Open-Faced Helm for some reason), which actually made him easier to hit, even with the -4! Good times.

 

[Garthanos]

Let's give all players the freedom to have their DM not allow them to do things.

The ultimate freedom... the ability to rely on your ability to "sosh" the DM

 

[Garthanos]

The overall core issue with maneuvers is that the D&D community is so old and so big that it can' agree on what weapons combat looks like past level6/EarlyTier2.

With magic, most things are spells you can categorize the effects. With monks in martial arts, there is a normal progression of how things look in martial arts media.

But with weapons combat, there are too many genre.And everyone does agree on which on. Hence the abstraction and MMI.

Essentially you would to use branching lists instead of a global list or separate schools like TOB of A5e.

1. Tier 1 Maneuvers
   • Fighters as Trained Warrior
     • Maneuvers are Additional Attack options
2. Tier 2 Maneuvers
   • Fighter as Elite Warrior
     • Maneuvers are Stronger versions of Additional Attack options
   • Fighter as Mighty Warrior
     • Maneuvers are displays of higher Ability scores
   • Fighter as Weapon Specialist
     • Maneuvers are new Additional Attack options
3. Tier 3 Maneuvers
   • Fighter as Action Star
     • Maneuvers are Additional Actions and Attacks
   • Fighter as Blessed Birth
     • Maneuvers are expression of the specialness of the individual fighter
   • Fighter as Magically Armored Tank with Magic Weapons
     • Maneuvers are Additional Applications of Magical Weapons and Armor
   • Fighter as Lord
     • Fighter gets Henchman
   • Fighter as Weaponmaster ("Eastern")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and slightly defying reality
   • Fighter as Weaponmaster ("Western")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and slightly defying the game mechanics
4. Tier 4 Maneuvers
   • Fighter as Action Star
     • Maneuvers are Additional Actions and Attacks
   • Fighters are Demigods
     • Manuevers are superpowers born of specialness or outside forces
   • Fighter as Magically Armored Tank with Artifact and Legendary Weapons
     • Maneuvers are Additional Applications of Artifact and Legendary Weapons and Armor
   • Fighter as Great Lord
     • Fighter gets Advanced Henchman
   • Fighter as Weapon Grandmaster ("Eastern")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and openly defying reality
   • Fighter as Weapon Grandmaster ("Western")
     • Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and blatantly defying the game mechanic

Basically, before you introduce magic, runes, psionics or whatever, the Fighter is already the stand in for at least 6 different types of warrior advancements.

4e put a lot of those tier choices in Themes/Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies. And it was not very class dependent not surprisingly.
They could have put more... like having a Fated Wielder where the powers were magic item or items but it definitely fits the paradigm.
It's about the player having a say in it. And a concept road map.

Thor movie quote:
"Are you the god of hammers?"