D&D (2024) Fighter brainstorm

[Pauln6]

People have issues with Mother May I because their DMs to varying degrees don't get the improvisational nature of the non-magic parts of 5E and the system doesn't help them understand and apply it properly.

The core gameplay loop of 5E is that the DM presents the world, the Players react, the DM adjudicates.

This same loop is whats meant to be used when the rules do not elucidate some subsystem (like magic) for doing something.

Yeah just the range of responses here indicates the problem designers are grappling with. The improvisation approach favours imaginative players far more, while some players push the notion far further than others, especially taking liberties with the action economy, leading DMS to say no more often than yes. But improvisational style can lead to a lot more fun.

 

[Emberashh]

look, compare it like this: if fireball wasn't codified in the rules but you tried to recreate it's effects with MMI in play it'd probably go something like this:
"hey GM, i want my wizard to use their magic to shoot a giant explosion of fire at that group of enemies over there"
"uh sure, there's no rules for that but um, cross off a fourth level spell slot and gimme two arcana checks?"
[rolls dice] "26 and 17"
"you create a 10ft radius of fire that deals 2d8 damage to the bandits, it's over 100ft away so your accuracy is slightly off and you miss hitting a few of them"

that's how it feels for martials when they try to do anything not codified and have to rely on GM judgement.

Considering that'd actually be a balanced version of Fireball that still invokes the fiction well Im not seeing the problem here lol.

 

[Incenjucar]

If the whole game was improv, it would be a different story, but as it stands only some actions require asking the DM for permission.

As it stands, while improv is still great for unique circumstances like barrels at the end of planks being used for vaulting, I don't like having to rely on it for basic, repeatable combat tactics like tripping or ear-boxing.

 

[Bill Zebub]

If the whole game was improv, it would be a different story, but as it stands only some actions require asking the DM for permission.

As it stands, while improv is still great for unique circumstances like barrels at the end of planks being used for vaulting, I don't like having to rely on it for basic, repeatable combat tactics like tripping or ear-boxing.

The flip side to that is when the caster says, "Can I cast fireball but have it be a smaller radius so I don't hit my friends?" the answer is straight up no, according to RAW.

 

[Incenjucar]

The flip side to that is when the caster says, "Can I cast fireball but have it be a smaller radius so I don't hit my friends?" the answer is straight up no, according to RAW.

Yes. Unless they have one of those feats or abilities that allow them to spare a square.

 

[mellored]

i don't think those are actions that should be exclusive to any class, "oh you're not a rogue? sorry you don't know how to taunt, trip or shove someone, not even as a trained martial warrior", let the fighter be adequate, good maybe even.

Is the argument that "fighters" need to be able to do this?

Or is it that a 100% nonmagical weapon user needs to do it? (I.e. rogue).

Because leaving fighter as the simplest class, and putting "dirty fighting" on rogues seems more
archetypal to me.

Also, fighters have always been able to trip, shove, and grapple. At level 11, they can trip 6 times with action surge.

Maybe the issue is that damage is better than tripping? So buff those things a little?
I.e.
When you successfully trip, grapple, or shove. You can deal bludgeoning damage equal to your proficiency bonus.

 

[Incenjucar]

For context:​

​

Battlemaster Trip Attack:​

When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to knock the target down. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you knock the target prone.

Generic Shove
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.

 

[James Gasik]

Yes, only something a Rogue could do. Wait...

 

[CreamCloud0]

Is the argument that "fighters" need to be able to do this?

Or is it that a 100% nonmagical weapon user needs to do it? (I.e. rogue).

my argument is that these are basic actions in a fight anyone should be able to do, they ought to be codified better, my secondary point is that as a specialist of martial combat the fighter should be better at these sorts of combat techniques.

Because leaving fighter as the simplest class,

we don't need a 'simple class' maybe we ought to have simple options for various classes but the 'fighter needs to be the simple easy class for newbies' attitude needs to go die in a hole IMO.

and putting "dirty fighting" on rogues seems more archetypal to me.

i got near all those original options i suggested off the battlemaster maneuvre list, it's not dirty fighting it's combat techniques, you only think it's for the rogue because you're sterotyping it as dirty fighting.

Also, fighters have always been able to trip, shove, and grapple. At level 11, they can trip 6 times with action surge.

cool, now give us all the other basic things that people could do in a fight that way too

Maybe the issue is that damage is better than tripping? So buff those things a little?
I.e.
When you successfully trip, grapple, or shove. You can deal bludgeoning damage equal to your proficiency bonus.

what would qualify as buffing alot of those things would mean making basic rules for them that don't require superiority dice.

 

[Clint_L]

I agree that a lot of this sounds like things that anyone should be able to do in a fight. What about adding them to the DMG as optional rules?

Then add very specialized options to different classes. Though being careful not to step too hard on the toes of the Battlemaster or Monk. So mostly weapon-based, and more about personal fighting than tactical control.