Vaalingrade
Legend
Isn't Reckless attack just the lazy bounded accuracy clone of 3e's Power Attack? Like, it's already the scared-of-math version of trading accuracy for being easier to hit.
Fighter brainstorm
- Thread starter mellored
- Start date
Vaalingrade
Legend
I'm pretty sure we've been told newbies can't operate feats either.
Lord Shark
Adventurer
13th Age barbarians roll two dice to hit while raging, and if both dice come up 11+ and at least one is a hit, it's automatically a critical. How much simpler can you get than that?
GMforPowergamers
Legend
early in 5e we talked about useing the mutants and master minds power attack/expertise updated to advantage.... so you could take disadvantage on attacks to grant disadvantage if anyone attacks you or you could gain advantage on attack but grant advantage to enemies...
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
La Destreza the more I read about it the more I was convinced it was fighter not rogue at all (... La Verdadera Destreza - the Spanish School of Fencing - La Verdadera Destreza
Some of the features was being able to lunge without skewering yourself on your enemies weapon LOL At that time Fencing was very glass cannon and their mathematical and angle manipulation schtick seemed to work, they were also known for an intimidatingly cool composure, medical training and being able to survive fights when others did not. They often saw it as a martial science even more than an art.
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| Class Description | Mage | Warrior |
|---|---|---|
| Learned Master of the Craft | Wizard | Fighter |
| Talented User of the Raw Ability | Sorcerer | Barbarian |
| Simple Expression of Pure Power | Arcanist | Brute |
| Beholden Scions of Secret Strength | Warlock | Chosen |
| Special Practitioners of Supportive Art | Bard | Warlord |
| Unique Specialists of Obscure Style | Artificer | Monk |
More classes gives everyone what they want
GMforPowergamers
Legend
that sounds pretty good...
Incenjucar
Legend
A bit of a niche desire, but I'd like to see some explicit support for the difference between the Fighter and the Gladiator from 2E. The gap between them is mainly "gets army" vs. "multiple specializations", so some support for getting followers and some support for getting more weapon specializations (whatever the 5E equivalent is). Subclasses for fighter should be fine for both of these, especially for the "gets army" stuff that was half-way through your career anyways.
Scott Christian
Hero
When you have a power, you use it. If that power is eldritch blast, you use it. When you don't, you get creative. I don't really feel like I am pitching an abstract concept.
This is true. But stop digging your heels in and listen for a second: They can do those things. They often don't do those things because there is something mechanical already outlined that they can do. It doesn't always make them do it, but I can watch any session of D&D and know it nudges them to do it. It's one of the reasons magic items are so neat. They often offer other avenues to take during an encounter.
Here is a simple example:
A group needs information on the thieves' hideout. (Pretty common D&D trope.) The party has found a thief at the local tavern. They spotted the tattoo. But how to extract the information.
Sorcerer: I cast friends and try to charm him. (One of their spells)
Barbarian: I use intimidation. (One of their skills)
Bard: I slip him a potion of love. (One of his items in his inventory)
Wizard: I cast detect thoughts (One of their spells)
The PC without any of these abilities thinks, and thinks, and thinks, and then says: I'm just going to try and tail him after he's been drinking. Even if he doesn't take me to their hideout, he might take me to his home, and maybe I can get the inside scoop there.
It is almost guaranteed a player thinks: "What abilities does my character possess that will solve the situation?" as opposed to "What can my character do?" You might be an outlier. You might play with really creative players, I don't know. But most games I have been a part of, or watched, or DM'ed, I've seen players focus on their PC's abilities instead of possibilities.
Strip the abilities away, and sometimes, for some players, it opens up possibilities.
Incenjucar
Legend
This mind-freeing lack of limitations should belong to all character types equally.
Scott Christian
Hero
It does. As stated in my post.
It is not equal because most players' minds look to their character's abilities. Thus, giving them a roadmap to what to do.
Incenjucar
Legend
So we should help spellcasters be free by removing powers.
Vaalingrade
Legend
Let's give all players the freedom to have their DM not allow them to do things.
Azzy
ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Preach on! Even 2e codified many maneuvers in The Complete Fighter's Handbook and Player's Option: Combat & Tactics. Heck, BECMI/RC had weapon mastery that granted access to special maneuvers for the different weapons. 3e/3.5 had combat maneuvers (though you sucked at them unless you had a feat). 4e I didn't play, but from everything I've heard, it did right by the Fighter. 5e is the first edition of the game since 1e that doesn't have codified combat maneuvers and that's my biggest complaint about 5e.
As a person that has loved playing fighters in previous editions, I'm so sick of Fighters taking the stick to appease this aberrant idea that fighters need to be, as you say, the "simple easy class for newbies". It seems like all of the people calling for the fighter to be this way aren't newbies and likely have no clue what newbies actually want from a fighter class.
Not enough maneuvers. No level-appropriate maneuvers beyond the first tier. The maneuvers are cordoned off to a single subclass instead of simply being available to the baseline fighter.
The overall core issue with maneuvers is that the D&D community is so old and so big that it can' agree on what weapons combat looks like past level6/EarlyTier2.
With magic, most things are spells you can categorize the effects. With monks in martial arts, there is a normal progression of how things look in martial arts media.
But with weapons combat, there are too many genre.And everyone does agree on which on. Hence the abstraction and MMI.
Essentially you would to use branching lists instead of a global list or separate schools like TOB of A5e.
- Tier 1 Maneuvers
- Fighters as Trained Warrior
- Maneuvers are Additional Attack options
- Fighters as Trained Warrior
- Tier 2 Maneuvers
- Fighter as Elite Warrior
- Maneuvers are Stronger versions of Additional Attack options
- Fighter as Mighty Warrior
- Maneuvers are displays of higher Ability scores
- Fighter as Weapon Specialist
- Maneuvers are new Additional Attack options
- Fighter as Elite Warrior
- Tier 3 Maneuvers
- Fighter as Action Star
- Maneuvers are Additional Actions and Attacks
- Fighter as Blessed Birth
- Maneuvers are expression of the specialness of the individual fighter
- Fighter as Magically Armored Tank with Magic Weapons
- Maneuvers are Additional Applications of Magical Weapons and Armor
- Fighter as Lord
- Fighter gets Henchman
- Fighter as Weaponmaster ("Eastern")
- Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and slightly defying reality
- Fighter as Weaponmaster ("Western")
- Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and slightly defying the game mechanics
- Fighter as Action Star
- Tier 4 Maneuvers
- Fighter as Action Star
- Maneuvers are Additional Actions and Attacks
- Fighters are Demigods
- Manuevers are superpowers born of specialness or outside forces
- Fighter as Magically Armored Tank with Artifact and Legendary Weapons
- Maneuvers are Additional Applications of Artifact and Legendary Weapons and Armor
- Fighter as Great Lord
- Fighter gets Advanced Henchman
- Fighter as Weapon Grandmaster ("Eastern")
- Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and openly defying reality
- Fighter as Weapon Grandmaster ("Western")
- Maneuvers are breaking the limitations of weapons and blatantly defying the game mechanic
- Fighter as Action Star
Very good analysis. Xena was technically a martial character (although she was revealed to have some supernatural monk-like abilities and was retconned to have learned rune magic at one point as well) but she was clearly performing feats that were physically impossible. Also, I just watched the D&D movie and the way Holga uses anything to hand to fight with is hugely entertaining without being too blatantly unrealistic.
Even a random table of combat effects for fighters a bit like wild the wild magic table would make things more interesting but would probably need to be max once per round due to slowing down the game with multiple attacks. Or limit it to blows when you inflict 10% or more of remaining hp in one hit (a significant advantage as the battle goes your way), or if your blow takes the target below 50% of their full hp for the first time, or when you use heroic inspiration. There might be quite a few simple options that could make fights a bit more varied.
I was just playing AD&D again with my Fighter, and I had forgotten just how much fun the various maneuvers in the Fighter's Handbook were once you have a low enough Thac0; I won a duel against an enemy knight despite them being technically superior to me (by dearth of higher Strength) just by going first (thanks to my Short Sword of Quickness) and using my first attack to Expert Disarm to drop his magic sword 12' behind me...then doing the same thing to his backup weapon the next turn, and then making Called Shots to face (he was wearing an Open-Faced Helm for some reason), which actually made him easier to hit, even with the -4! Good times.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
The ultimate freedom... the ability to rely on your ability to "sosh" the DM
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
4e put a lot of those tier choices in Themes/Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies. And it was not very class dependent not surprisingly.
They could have put more... like having a Fated Wielder where the powers were magic item or items but it definitely fits the paradigm.
It's about the player having a say in it. And a concept road map.
Thor movie quote:
"Are you the god of hammers?"
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