D&D (2024) Spells. What needs adjusted?

[FitzTheRuke]

All the Conjure spells, as well as animate object, need to not allow 8+ creatures. That slows the game down way too much. One summon is enough.

And they have been more or less replaced with Summon spells now, so just remove them.

This more has to do with 5e monster design, really. I mean, I haven't understood for years why they don't use the perfectly good Swarm mechanic used in 3e and 4e. It exists in 5e, but it's been marginalized down to a couple of types of vermin.

It was used more effectively in 4e, but even then - the community used it more than the designers. I remember using a gargantuan horde of ogres (single stat-block representing a shedload of ogres) as a high-level threat.

Frankly, a DM should never have to deal with more than 4-6 monster stat-blocks, and a player should never have to deal with more than two. (Their character and something they summon, or a pet). BUT... that doesn't mean that there can't be more creatures involved in the game's story. "Swarm" rules (better called "Hordes" IMO, to avoid them being reserved for vermin).

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I agree with most of these points except about damage. I think spell damage is mostly balanced okay in the sense that it is generally weak against single targets but certain spells are strong against multiple foes. I think it is important that every class has some weaknesses, and spell casters have a lot of flexibility. But their single target DPS should be significantly lower than classes like fighter or rogue who don't have all those options. Otherwise it just becomes the wizard show.

Ideally, in my ideal world, casters would be more about damage-over-time (ex: spike growth) or low-damage + effect (Fireball could deal some thunder and fire damage, knock prone and deafens, frex).

Single target, damage only spells should be mostly inexistent.

Ex:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 1d6 fire damage, plus 1d6 per proficiency bonus on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one, and is knocked prone. On a failed save, the target also takes 1d6 fire damage at the start of each of its turns for 1 minute. A creature can end this damage by using its action to make a Dexterity check against your spell DC to extinguish the flames.

The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried.

 

[mellored]

Hm. I don't have a problem with damage spells, in fact, given how many hit points monsters can have, I often find they probably could do more. The fact that damage synergizes with what the non-casters are typically doing is a big plus.

Burning hand and shatter could both use an extra damage die, IMO.

Hard control; things that leave enemies unable to do anything at all. These are problematic in every sense of the word. Hindering enemies actions and movements are exactly what I'd expect battlefield control to consist of in a game that wants melee combat to be the primary form of conflict resolution. Hypnotic Pattern making enemies stand around going "derrrh pretty lights" while you kill them one at a time seems a bit much. I prefer things like Web, Slow, or Sleet Storm.

Dazed is now a thing.
Could see hypnotic pattern switching to that.

 

[mellored]

Yeet Shield into the stratosphere.

IMO
Shield should reduce damage 5 per spell level.

Add AC and HP to the force spells like Wall of Force and Forcecage, both should be concentration.

Agreed.

More to do with the Saving Throw system, but them targetting six saves is too much when they just don't scale at all. A level 20 character can easily be disabled by even CR 1/2 casters with the right spells.

I kind of feel like everyone should get + 1/2 proficiency in "all other" saves.

 

[tetrasodium]

Spells - Archives of Nethys: Starfinder RPG Database This is the Flight spell from the Starfinder RPG. When cast as a 1st level spell, it acts like the spell Feather Fall. At 2nd level, it acts like Levitate. At 3rd level, it acts like Fly.

It's also worth noting some of starfinder's many differences. The two classes listed on fly (witchwarper/technopmancer) get 3rd & 4th level spells at levels 4 & 7 with 4-6 at 10 13 & 16. Both are light armor classes & basic melee weapons+small arms but one adds grenades. A much greater share of character power comes from gear, light armor alone is quite the list

Spoiler: starfinder light armor table

Light Armor​

Name	Level	Price	EAC Bonus	KAC Bonus	Maximum Dex Bonus	Armor Check Penalty	Speed Adjustment	Upgrade Slots	Bulk
Stationwear, Flight Suit	1	95	+0	+1	6	—	—	0	L
Shobhad Harness, Recruit	1	150	+0	+2	4	-1	—	0	1
EJ Coverall, Utility	1	230	+1	+1	4	—	—	2	L
Flight Skin, Nascent	1	230	+0	+2	5	—	—	1	L
Second Skin	1	250	+1	+2	5	—	—	1	L
Estex Suit, I	1	410	+0	+1	5	-1	—	2	1
Kasatha Microcord, I	2	460	+1	+3	3	-1	—	0	1
Preserver's Mantle, I	2	520	+1	+2	6	—	—	0	L
Zeizerer Diffractor, I	2	650	+2	+2	4	—	—	0	L
Freebooter Armor, I	2	750	+2	+3	4	—	—	0	L
EJ Coverall, Industrial	2	900	+2	+2	4	—	—	2	L
Vesk Brigandine, I	2	950	+2	+2	5	—	—	1	L
Hardened Resin	3	1,200	+2	+3	5	-1	—	1	1
Skitterhide, I	3	1,200	+2	+3	5	—	—	0	L
Carbon Skin, Graphite	3	1,220	+3	+4	4	-1	—	1	1
ThermSkin, I	3	1,275	+2	+3	4	—	—	0	L
Stationwear, Casual	3	1,300	+1	+2	6	—	—	0	L
Clearweave, I	3	1,350	+3	+3	5	—	—	0	L
Devwear I	3	1,400	+2	+2	6	—	—	1	L
Regimental Dress, I	3	1,450	+2	+3	5	—	—	1	L
Devourer’s Skin, Chewing	3	1,500	+2	+4	4	-1	—	0	1
Camping Gear I	4	1,850	+4	+6	4	-1	—	0	L
Shobhad Harness, Veteran	4	1,850	+3	+5	5	-1	—	1	1
Lashunta Tempweave, Basic	4	1,950	+4	+4	5	—	—	1	L
Peacekeeper’s Aegis, I	4	2,000	+4	+5	4	-1	—	1	1
Acrochor Hide, Basic	4	2,100	+5	+5	5	—	—	0	L
Autoencoded Veil, I	4	2,100	+4	+4	4	—	—	1	1
Exochitin, Slicer	4	2,100	+3	+4	5	—	—	1	L
Grave Mantle, Enlisted	4	2,100	+4	+5	4	—	—	0	L
Defrex Hide, Basic	4	2,250	+5	+5	4	—	—	1	L
Troupesuit I	5	2,600	+6	+4	5	-1	—	2	L
Stationwear, Business	5	2,600	+2	+3	6	—	—	0	L
Vesk Brigandine, II	5	2,650	+5	+5	5	—	—	2	L
Estex Suit, II	5	2,700	+4	+5	5	-1	—	3	1
Plexigrass Bodysuit, I	5	2,700	+3	+4	6	—	—	2	L
D-Suit, I	5	2,980	+5	+6	5	—	—	1	L
Flight Skin, Foray	5	3,350	+3	+5	5	—	—	3	L
Ursikka Carapace, Synthetic	5	4,000	+5	+6	5	—	—	0	L
Kasatha Microcord, II	6	3,670	+6	+8	4	-1	—	1	L
Stationwear, Elite	6	4,100	+4	+5	7	—	—	0	L
Ysoki Refractor Suit	6	4,120	+7	+7	5	—	—	2	L
Zeizerer Diffractor, II	6	4,150	+6	+6	6	—	—	1	L
Polyplate, Basic	6	4,200	+5	+7	4	—	—	2	L
Lashunta Mind Mail, I	6	4,250	+6	+6	6	—	—	2	L
Freebooter Armor, II	6	4,720	+6	+8	5	—	—	1	L
Dust Manta Hide, Basic	6	5,150	+5	+7	5	—	—	0	L
ThermSkin, II	6	5,900	+6	+7	5	—	—	1	L
Estex Suit, III	7	5,500	+7	+8	5	-1	—	4	1
Preserver's Mantle, II	7	6,400	+6	+9	6	—	—	1	L
Feyguard, Sprite	7	6,600	+7	+8	6	—	—	2	L
D-Suit, II	7	6,900	+8	+9	5	—	—	2	L
AbadarCorp Travel Suit, Silver	7	7,250	+6	+7	7	—	—	0	L
Aeon Guard, SpecOps Armor	7	7,500	+7	+8	5	-1	—	5	1
Azlanti Royal Battle Regalia	7	8,000	+7	+8	5	—	—	4	1
Devourer’s Skin, Gnawing	7	8,000	+6	+9	4	-1	—	1	1
Peacekeeper’s Aegis, II	8	8,100	+9	+10	5	-1	—	3	1
Acrochor Hide, Advanced	8	8,250	+10	+10	6	—	—	0	L
Lashunta Tempweave, Advanced	8	8,500	+9	+10	6	—	—	3	L
Shobhad Harness, Warleader	8	8,600	+9	+11	5	-1	—	2	1
Vesk Brigandine, III	8	8,800	+10	+10	5	—	—	2	L
Defrex Hide, Mature	8	9,000	+9	+11	4	—	—	2	L
Kasatha Microcord, III	8	9,000	+9	+11	5	-1	—	2	1
Autoencoded Veil, II	8	9,500	+9	+10	5	—	—	2	1
AbadarCorp Travel Suit, Gold	9	12,100	+9	+10	8	—	—	0	L
Skitterhide, II	9	12,500	+10	+11	7	—	—	2	L
Ursikka Hide, Basic	9	12,500	+9	+9	7	—	—	1	L
Zeizerer Diffractor, III	9	12,500	+11	+11	7	—	—	2	L
Clearweave, II	9	13,150	+12	+12	5	—	—	2	L
D-Suit, III	9	13,300	+11	+12	6	—	—	3	L
Plexigrass Bodysuit, II	9	13,500	+9	+10	8	—	—	3	L
Shiftskin, I	9	13,850	+10	+11	7	-1	—	2	1
Scrapchain, Giant	9	14,500	+10	+11	5	—	—	0	1
Flight Skin, Dream	9	15,000	+9	+11	5	—	—	4	L
Freebooter Armor, III	10	16,900	+12	+13	6	—	—	3	L
Polyplate, Advanced	10	17,400	+11	+13	5	—	—	3	L
Grave Mantle, Specialist	10	17,950	+13	+15	4	—	—	2	L
Regimental Dress, II	10	18,600	+13	+13	5	—	—	2	L
Carbon Skin, White Carbon	10	19,650	+12	+14	5	-1	—	3	1
Void Hide, I	10	20,000	+13	+15	4	-1	—	1	1
ThermSkin, III	10	21,800	+12	+14	5	—	—	3	L
Vesk Brigandine, IV	11	23,500	+14	+14	5	—	—	3	L
Kasatha Microcord, IV	11	23,800	+13	+15	5	-1	—	3	1
Feyguard, Dryad	11	24,000	+12	+13	7	—	—	2	L
Lashunta Mind Mail, II	11	24,500	+13	+14	6	—	—	2	L
Devourer’s Skin, Gnashing	11	25,000	+12	+15	5	-1	—	1	1
Ursikka Carapace, Traditional	11	41,000	+13	+15	6	—	—	2	L
Acrochor Hide, Elite	12	28,000	+15	+15	7	—	—	0	L
AbadarCorp Travel Suit, Platinum	12	30,750	+12	+13	8	—	—	0	L
Defrex Hide, Advanced	12	33,000	+14	+16	5	—	—	3	L
Peacekeeper’s Aegis, III	12	33,500	+14	+15	6	-1	—	3	1
Preserver's Mantle, III	12	35,400	+12	+15	7	—	—	3	L
Autoencoded Veil, III	12	36,500	+13	+15	5	—	—	2	1
Hardlight Series, Squad	12	37,500	+15	+15	6	—	—	4	L
Dust Manta Hide, Advanced	12	43,250	+15	+16	6	—	—	0	L
D-Suit, IV	13	45,800	+16	+17	6	—	—	4	L
Ursikka Hide, Advanced	13	46,500	+15	+16	7	—	—	2	L
Shobhad Harness, Chieftain	13	46,900	+15	+17	5	-1	—	3	1
Zeizerer Diffractor, IV	13	48,500	+15	+15	8	—	—	3	L
Estex Suit, IV	13	49,250	+15	+16	6	-1	—	6	1
Scrapchain, Behemoth	13	49,750	+15	+17	5	—	—	1	1
Plexigrass Bodysuit, III	13	51,000	+15	+16	8	—	—	4	L
Freebooter Armor, IV	14	60,600	+17	+18	6	—	—	4	L
Polyplate, Elite	14	65,000	+15	+17	6	—	—	4	L
Echelon Fashion, Ready to Wear	14	71,300	+15	+16	8	—	—	0	L
Exochitin, Vivisector	14	75,500	+15	+17	6	—	—	1	L
Shiftskin, II	14	76,830	+16	+17	7	-1	—	3	1
Flight Skin, Venture	14	77,000	+14	+17	6	—	—	5	L
Void Hide, II	14	90,000	+16	+18	5	-1	—	2	1
Swarmsuit	15	95,200	+18	+19	6	—	—	4	L
Feyguard, Nymph	15	97,500	+17	+18	8	—	—	3	L
Vesk Brigandine, V	15	99,900	+19	+20	5	—	—	4	L
ThermSkin, IV	15	120,000	+17	+18	7	—	—	4	L
Hardlight Series, Elite	15	123,500	+18	+18	7	—	—	4	L
Carbon Skin, Diamond	15	126,400	+17	+19	7	-1	—	4	1
Defrex Hide, Elite	16	142,000	+19	+21	6	—	—	4	L
Skitterhide, III	16	144,000	+19	+19	8	—	—	4	L
Shotalashu Armor	16	149,500	+19	+20	7	—	—	5	L
Lashunta Mind Mail, III	16	166,500	+20	+20	7	—	—	3	L
Autoencoded Veil, VI	16	175,000	+19	+20	6	—	—	3	1
Ursikka Hide, Elite	17	240,000	+20	+20	8	—	—	3	L
D-Suit, V	17	244,300	+20	+21	7	—	—	5	L
Scrapchain, Titan	17	256,000	+18	+20	5	—	—	2	1
Grave Mantle, Officer	17	256,500	+20	+22	5	—	—	3	L
Devourer’s Skin, Masticating	17	275,000	+18	+21	5	-1	—	1	1
Echelon Fashion, Bespoke	17	285,000	+18	+19	8	—	—	0	L
Zeizerer Diffractor, V	18	340,000	+20	+20	9	—	—	4	L
Polyplate, Paragon	18	345,000	+19	+21	7	—	—	5	L
Freebooter Armor, V	18	367,650	+20	+21	8	—	—	5	L
Void Hide, III	18	382,500	+20	+22	6	-1	—	3	1
Regimental Dress, III	18	387,000	+22	+22	6	—	—	4	L
Flight Skin, Conglomeration	18	400,000	+18	+21	7	—	—	6	L
D-Suit, VI	19	552,000	+21	+22	8	—	—	6	L
Feyguard, Erlking	19	555,000	+20	+21	9	—	—	4	L
Lashunta Mind Mail, IV	19	556,000	+22	+22	7	—	—	5	L
Exochitin, Decapitator	19	585,000	+19	+21	8	—	—	0	L
Carbon Skin, Nanotube	20	825,000	+21	+23	8	-1	—	6	1
Autoencoded Veil, V	20	850,000	+22	+22	7	—	—	4	1
Shiftskin, III	20	886,500	+22	+24	7	-1	—	5	1
Hardlight Series, Specialist	20	928,000	+22	+22	8	—	—	6	L

That's only the light armor, there is also heavy armor powered armor & upgrades for armor. Basic melee, small arms, & Grenades have similarly 1-20 lists. That doesn't even get into advanced melee, Heavy, Long Arms, Solarian, & so on.

One d&d would be greatly improved by taking a page from starfinder here & getting away from having PCs that reject the concept of needing things like regular gear improvements directly looted or through purchase from NPCs with barter/money/services. Cantrips should always have been linked to items rather than innate aotoscaling things granted via chargen. Sure base level cantrip wands & holy symbols might be easily available (or even mundane), but control over supply of the improved versions that come from level should have been in the DM's hands alongside magic weapons & magic armor.

 

[pnewman]

Magic Missile needs to do more damage. Over the years its damage has not gone up as much as hit points have and now it is too weak.

 

[Stalker0]

Treantmonk has done a very detailed analysis on winners and losers when it comes to spells.

The number one weakest spell for its level....Mordenkainen's Sword. While other spells have been debated on how weak they are, are they situationally useful, I think its pretty much universally agreed that this spell is 100% garbage. It provides no value that other 7th level or even much lower level spells don't do better.....none.

 

[tetrasodium]

This got put together a while ago too

D&D 5E - Guide to cruddy spells (v1.01)

The worst spell thread (here) recently got brought up with some necroposting that led to a few pages of discussion largely distracted by rehashing of earlier mentioned spells. Given that it was ten pages long & dated back to 2017 I decided to compile it into something that could be discussed &...

www.enworld.org

 

[MGibster]

I'd like them to do something with Charm Person. I don't know what a "friendly acquaintance" is supposed to do for the person who charmed him. i.e. A little more guidance for how the spell might be used would be helpful.

 

[James Gasik]

I'd like them to do something with Charm Person. I don't know what a "friendly acquaintance" is supposed to do for the person who charmed him. i.e. A little more guidance for how the spell might be used would be helpful.

This, I wouldn't touch most Enchantment spells with an 11' pole because they are poorly worded and basically come with a tag that says "oh and after the spell wears off, they hire assassins to kill you".