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GMs: Guiding Morals in GMing

That's entirely fair. However, I think I'd need a pretty engaging example before I would agree whole heartedly. Personally, as a GM, if I've done my job framing scenes and adjudicating fairly, then fudging rolls shouldn't be a thing. That is, again, just my opinion, not some sort of holy writ.
I think I would agree that fudging rolls in a PbtA game would be contra to the avowed principles of play (though it would have to be a player doing it, since in 'classic PbtAs' the GM never touches the dice at all). I'd say it probably verges on unethical at the very least as well, in most cases.
 

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I've been reading that thread with some interest on and off in between grinding through email for work. (Music festival season is busy season.)



Riffing a bit on some of @pemerton's subsequent posts in this thread, for those who aren't familiar with the term, neo-trad is described in reasonable detail in this blog post by The Retired Adventurer. I think the blog does a decent job of contrasting trad versus neo-trad play.

Suffice to say that since all WotC editions of D&D can fall comfortably within the remit of neo-trad play, it's fair to say that responsibility for establishing the shared fiction is still (usually) very heavily GM-centric compared to games such as Apocalypse World and its offshoots.
Well, I would say that, by the definitions of the blog post, 5e doesn't really seem to fit neo-trad THAT well, as it emphasizes GM authority over the rules AND the process of play, and seems to envisage a pretty heavy involvement of the GM in being sole author of the scenario (though admittedly, since most everyone seems to just play modules/APs these days that may be more pro-forma than anything). 5e is pretty much, IMHO a re-creation of 2e with less broken rules, basically. In that sense I think it falls more under the blog's definition of straight up TRAD. Honestly though, these definitions are too slippery to mean much, and I think even 'The Retired Adventurer' is getting caught up in using other definitions he's not even referencing!

In any case, I don't think 'OC' really exists in D&D, except maybe in living worlds and some forms of troupe play that were actually common in what the blogger calls 'classic'.
 

pemerton

Legend
@AbdulAlhazred
@Composer99

On this trad/neo-trad topic, I think the difference is How much does the GM's scenario permit the player to display their conception of their character?

In this respect, 5e isn't just less broken rules than 2nd ed AD&D - although that's true of it! I think it also gives players more "levers" of control to display their character conceptions, in part because of the more intricate PC builds but also because the default level of threat from the GM-authored and GM-controlled opposition is lower.

To my mind, this is what makes it more oriented towards neo-trad than 2nd ed AD&D. Though perhaps not as much as something like Fate.
 

Jahydin

Hero
It has no consequence on the outcome of the combat. But under our paradigm of running game, it has a severe impact on the relationship between players and GM. Not the single instance, but how it reflects on the entire approach of how the GM deals with encounters. It sets an expectation that the GM will follow the mechanics of the game only as long as it seems convenient (or you might use the term "appropriate").
I think too many people are reading into this way deeper than necessary...

The only expectation set is I can end combat early if I deem it has been "won" and I want to move on to the next challenge. That might not be everyone's cup of tea, but to act like it's dishonest or playing the game incorrectly is just silly. Not everything needs to be codified into rules to make it a "legit" ruling. If I'm playing 5E and half the orc party goes down and I decided the survivors run in fear, that's totally a call a I can make as a DM even though 5E doesn't have rules on morale.

When combat starts, the DM isn't suddenly stripped of their "cosmic DM powers" and now must play "D&D the boardgame" with the rest of the players. Being dynamic and changing things on the fly is just as important in combat as it is outside imo.
 
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@pemerton I would say @AbdulAlhazred is pretty on point as regards published adventures for 5e. They run pretty trad, in the sense that who the characters are isn't very important for the scenario. For instance, I'm running Rise of Tiamat and unless I add content that's curated to pertain to the PC backgrounds, goals, and connections/relationships, there isn't really any there by default (barring anything developed in Hoard of the Dragon Queen, that is.) And it's fair to say that the rules for 5e enable neo-trad play without doing a very good job of supporting it.

Where I think there's a culture change between AD&D 2e and 5e, such that the latter tends to be played neo-trad, is how, especially in home games, who the player characters are and what they want is much more central to play.

A well-known example would be Critical Role campaign 2. The various plot threads, apart from the overall war arc, specifically revolve around the backstories and goals of the player characters (and in one case, covering for two players being away for several weeks on account of having a baby).

As a personal example, I started a game during the height of the covid pandemic wherein several player characters had mysteries in their backstories. This was a learning game for my son and a few other players new to D&D.
  • my son's character was chasing a thief who had stolen a magical gemstone of great power
  • another character, a halfling foundling, was seeking her missing father/older brother figure
  • yet another character, an elf of somewhat unusual magical provenance, was out for revenge against attempted kidnappers

I decided to have an initial antagonist who brought these three lines of backstory together, a venal and corrupt noble who was collecting the gemstone (and other rare and magical curiosities - including people!). The missing father figure had gone off to protect another magical gemstone from suffering the same fate. (This was going to give the party a potential hook for future adventuring once they had stopped the noble; assuming they bit the hook, that is!)

Sadly, this particular game came to a screeching halt in the summer of 2021.

Now, "stop the bad guy from catching them all!" isn't the most individualised experience; on the other hand. if the character's backstories and goals had been different, I would have done something different. It was the specifics invented by the players that determined the initial shape of the campaign. That is, who the characters are and what they want was far more vital to this campaign than to, say, Rise of Tiamat - essential, even!
 

Jahydin

Hero
It sets an expectation that the GM will follow the mechanics of the game only as long as it seems convenient (or you might use the term "appropriate"). But this is a purely subjective choice based on the GM's taste. Which means that for players to make the best decisions they can, they have to take the GM's preferences or momentary whim into account.
I did find this curious since I thought this was an understood part of TTRPGs? Is this really not the case for anyone?
 

@AbdulAlhazred
@Composer99

On this trad/neo-trad topic, I think the difference is How much does the GM's scenario permit the player to display their conception of their character?

In this respect, 5e isn't just less broken rules than 2nd ed AD&D - although that's true of it! I think it also gives players more "levers" of control to display their character conceptions, in part because of the more intricate PC builds but also because the default level of threat from the GM-authored and GM-controlled opposition is lower.

To my mind, this is what makes it more oriented towards neo-trad than 2nd ed AD&D. Though perhaps not as much as something like Fate.
Fair enough. I mean, 2e retains a LOT of the more traditional (I would say, at least for early 1e, classic) 'machinery' and process of play. So, while it talks a lot about 'story' there isn't a ton of options presented in base level 2e to realize that on the character side. Later 2e though gets a LOT of options, they're just a hodge-podge kind of that isn't really implemented well at all. 3e just elaborated the heck out of that, so you can build ANYTHING, but most of those builds don't really work out of the box, instead the players and GM kind of had to pretend (like @Gilladian runs 3.5, but they stop at around 6th level mostly). 5e definitely fixes a LOT of that, and I'd agree that vis-a-vis 2e/3e it is offering a lot more viable PC options. I guess you could interpret that as 'neo trad', though what the blogger linked earlier was calling neo trad seemed a bit more radical, as his interpretation of trad is more like what 2e does. His neo trad is like "players pretty much run things" which frankly I never got as being an intended mode of 5e. 4e, maybe, to a degree, but definitely not quite as he describes it there either (though I'm sure it could be drifted that way).
 

niklinna

satisfied?
I did find this curious since I thought this was an understood part of TTRPGs? Is this really not the case for anyone?
For me it depends very much on the game system and the GM. Some systems I would just not play if mechanics were subject to GM whim. PbtA and FitD games are squarely in that category. More trad games, like D&D, even Torg Eternity, as long as it was explicitly stated, I'd be cool with the GM going, "It's clear this fight is over, let's move on" (I have been in my share of fights or chases that just dragged on, and on, and on, and ...). I might even be cool with a near miss being read as a hit, or damage being nudged to take out a foe, but I'd rather the GM just skip the dice rolls than change them after the fact.
 

pemerton

Legend
I guess you could interpret that as 'neo trad', though what the blogger linked earlier was calling neo trad seemed a bit more radical, as his interpretation of trad is more like what 2e does. His neo trad is like "players pretty much run things" which frankly I never got as being an intended mode of 5e. 4e, maybe, to a degree, but definitely not quite as he describes it there either (though I'm sure it could be drifted that way).
Here are what I take to be the key ideas in that blog's description of OC/neo-trad:

The DM becomes a curator and facilitator who primarily works with material derived from other sources - publishers and players, in practice. OC culture has a different sense of what a "story" is, one that focuses on player aspirations and interests and their realisation as the best way to produce "fun" for the players.

This focus on realising player aspirations is what allows both the Wizard 20 casting Meteor Swarm to annihilate a foe and the people who are using D&D 5e to play out running their own restaurant to be part of a shared culture of play. . . .

Organised play ended up diminishing the power of the DM to shift authority onto rules texts, publishers, administrators, and really, to players. Since DMs may change from adventure to adventure but player characters endure, they become more important, with standard rules texts providing compatibility between game. DM discretion and invention become things that interfere with this intercompatibility, and thus depreciated. This is where the emphases on "RAW" and using only official material (but also the idea that if it's published it must be available at the table) come from - it undermines DM power and places that power in the hands of the PCs. . . .

OC styles are also particularly popular with online streaming games like Critical Role since when done well they produce games that are fairly easy to watch as television shows. The characters in the stream become aspirational figures that a fanbase develops parasocial relationships with and cheers on as they realise their "arcs".​

There's some stuff in there one could quibble with - eg the reference to "power in the hands of the PCs" pretty clearly means "in the hands of the players"; and the emphasis on official material and "RAW" clearly has currency beyond organised play, probably reinforced by a broader sense in RPG hobby-dom that rules design is a real thing that professional designers might have done well.

Still, I think it points fairly clearly to an approach to play in which players are very firmly in control of who their characters are and the GM's job is to provide a "stage" on which those characters can show themselves off (in virtue of player decisions about what they do and say).

An AP can serve as such a stage - a bit like superhero comics, the players show of their PCs somewhat orthogonally in relation to what is (at least on the surface) the "main action" of hacking through the dungeon or whatever. This is where the forgiving nature of challenges in 5e helps: the players and their PCs don't need to be all-consumed by trying to beat the GM's challenge.

Of course a custom-designed stage might do a better job. But I don't think it's the case in this style that the players "run things". In fact, and implicit I think in the whole idea of a player bringing their "OC" into someone else's world, it seems to me that the GM is expected to do a lot of work setting up the stage such that the players can portray their PCs upon it. This is an approach to GMing that I would associate with the idea of GM "burnout".

I know that setting up "litmus tests" for approaches to play is a fraught endeavour, but nevertheless I'll conjecture one: in neo-trad/OC play, if the character's goal is to (say) woo a princess, or (say) rule a castle, it is the GM's job to introduce a princess or a castle into the fiction such that the player can then bring their PC into the appropriate relationship to that story element.

Whereas in Burning Wheel, the player has tools to drive this themself: Circles and Wises. And if those checks fail, then things with the princess or the castle may turn out very differently.

And in AW/DW, the player likewise has tools - Spout Lore/Read a Sitch/Read a Person, for instance. And again, if those checks fail, then the GM is invited to announce some sort of badness. "Moves snowball" is an official slogan in AW, and equally applicable I think not only to DW but to BW. And because of it, player-authored goals for their PCs, and player-authored self-understandings of their PCs (eg Belief: I will keep the Elven ways), are always up for grabs in the way you described upthread. Whereas in neo-trad play, moves don't snowballs and hence these player-authored elements of character are not up for grabs in the same way.
 

Jahydin

Hero
For me it depends very much on the game system and the GM. Some systems I would just not play if mechanics were subject to GM whim. PbtA and FitD games are squarely in that category. More trad games, like D&D, even Torg Eternity, as long as it was explicitly stated, I'd be cool with the GM going, "It's clear this fight is over, let's move on" (I have been in my share of fights or chases that just dragged on, and on, and on, and ...). I might even be cool with a near miss being read as a hit, or damage being nudged to take out a foe, but I'd rather the GM just skip the dice rolls than change them after the fact.
I think anyone who's DMed long enough develops a knack for when or when not it's appropriate to ignore established mechanics and improvise, no matter the system.

How that's done is impossible to codify though since it relies on very specific instances, players, and circumstances and how it's learned is from experience alone.

And for the new DMs/players, mistakes will certainly be made (especially running "balanced" 5E encounters!). Better to tweak things mid-combat then to have your entire campaign end over misjudgment. Allow RNGesus to drive, but don't let him crash the car!
 

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