D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Corinnguard]

This thread makes me like Level Up's approach to beings of mixed heritage even more. As ancestry is more than just biology. It's cultural too.

 

[Blue Orange]

Here in the United States, saying we're part whatever can mean a lot of things. My family on both sides can trace their origins to Scotland and if asked about my background, I'll happily say Scottish but I don't think of myself as Scottish. No Scotsman would ever in a million years think of me as Scottish. I don't eat Scottish food, participate in Scottish cultural events, I don't speak in the same dialect, and when Scotland was voting whether or stay in Great Britain I didn't understand what the issues were. (True Story: My sister mentioned our strong "Irish" background and I had to disabuse her of that notion and explain most of our ancestors hailed from Scotland originally. Though that includes the Scotch-Irish, which is even more complicated because while recognized as a distinct group in the United States, and Canada maybe, it's not recognized in Great Britain or Ireland.)

I think you're referring to the ethnic group that migrated from Scotland to Ireland during the plantation of Ireland, known as Ulster Scots in the UK; Scotch-Irish is apparently considered offensive on that side of the Atlantic, whereas here that's what people called themselves. It's a big part of the Southern and Appalachian and southern Midwestern culture if you ever get the heritage bug.

 

[Faolyn]

I wonder though. Do people take races based on the race abilities or because those races appeal to them. I have a sneaking suspicion that racial mechanics are not very high up on people's list of priorities when creating a character. I might be wrong, but, it would explain why WotC is going the route they are. If people's choices of race are largely for aesthetic reasons, then, well, why bother creating a whole system for mix and match race abilties? It just makes creating a character that bit more complicated. Which, in turn makes these races less appealing.

I think that for many people--not all, but a lot--the mechanics are important, especially when combined with the ASI. Remember the brouhaha about mountain dwarf wizards? Minmaxing has always been a thing, after all. I know that when it's come to choosing between two different races (picked for reasons of either story or aesthetics), I'll then look at the abilities.

 

[Scars Unseen]

2014:
Player: Can I play a half-elf/half-tiefling?
DM: sorry, the game rules say only humans and elves can mate to form half-elves.

2024:
Player: Can I play a half-elf/half-tiefling?
DM: sure. Pick one of those species for your traits, then describe your character looks and acts. Your lifespan will be the average of the two.

Why are you trying to frame the latter as something that gaming groups are finally able to do thanks to WotC's Revelation? In AD&D, I once had a Saiyan character that fused with a human-turned-half dragon after being merged with parts of his dragon scale armor during a resurrection attempt by an android scientist. We've always been free to just make things up and describe our characters differently than what the base race entries prescribe. We've also been able to completely make up new game mechanics to make our ideas interact with the game during play. My experience is that gaming groups typically need more help with the latter than the former, so it's my opinion that that's where WotC should focus their efforts.

A system of mechanics to create a character born of parents from different races and/or cultures would be helpful and welcome. Just telling us we can describe what our character looks like if we want is inane. We've never not been able to do that.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Why are you trying to frame the latter as something that gaming groups are finally able to do thanks to WotC's Revelation? In AD&D, I once had a Saiyan character that fused with a human-turned-half dragon after being merged with parts of his dragon scale armor during a resurrection attempt by an android scientist. We've always been free to just make things up and describe our characters differently than what the base race entries prescribe. We've also been able to completely make up new game mechanics to make our ideas interact with the game during play. My experience is that gaming groups typically need more help with the latter than the former, so it's my opinion that that's where WotC should focus their efforts.

A system of mechanics to create a character born of parents from different races and/or cultures would be helpful and welcome. Just telling us we can describe what our character looks like if we want is inane. We've never not been able to do that.

2E had tons of race and class optional rules in the Complete books too

But rulings and house rules, differences from setting to setting (check out the Taladas boxed set for example), etc

It was fundamentally about the individual campaign world

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think that for many people--not all, but a lot--the mechanics are important, especially when combined with the ASI. Remember the brouhaha about mountain dwarf wizards? Minmaxing has always been a thing, after all. I know that when it's come to choosing between two different races (picked for reasons of either story or aesthetics), I'll then look at the abilities.

People definitely picked races for abilities, just like people picked classes for abilities. Most people seemed to balance out picking over flavor and mechanics. But I think it is a mistake to say only mechanics matter or only flavor matters. Classes and Races are packages of abilities. I think that is a key ingredient that makes D&D function the way it does

 

[Remathilis]

People definitely picked races for abilities, just like people picked classes for abilities. Most people seemed to balance out picking over flavor and mechanics. But I think it is a mistake to say only mechanics matter or only flavor matters. Classes and Races are packages of abilities. I think that is a key ingredient that makes D&D function the way it does

Part of my fear with some hybrid system is that it will overshadow the notion of single ancestry PCs. I don't want the game to be full of PCs who are cherry picking all the best traits and slapping them on with a "well, my mom was a goblin and my dad was a drow, so now my rogue gets double darkvision and cunning escape." I want people to play humans, elves, dragonborn and orcs, not just use them as packages to syphon the best parts from. I double don't want to see what happens with the species from MotM getting into the mix and people are making aarakroca/tabaxi so they can do double-move flying attacks.

I don't see any way that works without making hybrid species either a pain point (give up your level 1 feat to pick traits from another species) or aesthetic (pick a trait package and reflavor it what you want.) The game can't support 511 additional unique hybrid species, and any system of swapping traits is going to be used for min-maxing. I'd rather lose mechanical hybridization than make it mandatory.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Part of my fear with some hybrid system is that it will overshadow the notion of single ancestry PCs. I don't want the game to be full of PCs who are cherry picking all the best traits and slapping them on with a "well, my mom was a goblin and my dad was a drow, so now my rogue gets double darkvision and cunning escape." I want people to play humans, elves, dragonborn and orcs, not just use them as packages to syphon the best parts from. I double don't want to see what happens with the species from MotM getting into the mix and people are making aarakroca/tabaxi so they can do double-move flying attacks.

I don't see any way that works without making hybrid species either a pain point (give up your level 1 feat to pick traits from another species) or aesthetic (pick a trait package and reflavor it what you want.) The game can't support 511 additional unique hybrid species, and any system of swapping traits is going to be used for min-maxing. I'd rather lose mechanical hybridization than make it mandatory.

Which is why I think having the core book include half orcs and half elves works. Those have been tested over time. Other options can just be in optional in supplemental books or ruled in.

 

[Faolyn]

Part of my fear with some hybrid system is that it will overshadow the notion of single ancestry PCs. I don't want the game to be full of PCs who are cherry picking all the best traits and slapping them on with a "well, my mom was a goblin and my dad was a drow, so now my rogue gets double darkvision and cunning escape." I want people to play humans, elves, dragonborn and orcs, not just use them as packages to syphon the best parts from. I double don't want to see what happens with the species from MotM getting into the mix and people are making aarakroca/tabaxi so they can do double-move flying attacks.

Do your players normally minmax like that?

If they don't, then you don't have a problem. Maybe other tables will, but not your table. I can't imagine anyone at my table minmaxing like that.

If that is your problem, then... specify what abilities get switched around. Maybe your half-goblin/half-drow mostly uses the drow chassis but loses Drow Magic but gets Fury of the Small instead, or uses the goblin chassis but loses Nimble Escape and gains double darkvision instead. And your half-tabaxi/half-aarakocra keeps flight but loses that extra speed. Half-races aren't going to have everything from both halves, after all.

 

[Remathilis]

Do your players normally minmax like that?

If they don't, then you don't have a problem. Maybe other tables will, but not your table. I can't imagine anyone at my table minmaxing like that.

If that is your problem, then... specify what abilities get switched around. Maybe your half-goblin/half-drow mostly uses the drow chassis but loses Drow Magic but gets Fury of the Small instead, or uses the goblin chassis but loses Nimble Escape and gains double darkvision instead. And your half-tabaxi/half-aarakocra keeps flight but loses that extra speed. Half-races aren't going to have everything from both halves, after all.

Do they know how to play D&D? Yes.

My players aren't the stereotypical munchkins, but they know how to build a PC. They know you can get a lot of more mileage out of certain multi-classing (like warlock and sorcerer or paladin) and they knew how to make sure they didn't get redundant abilities (like being a red dragonborn red draconic sorcerer and get fire resistance twice).

Moreover, even if they aren't the kinds that would gravitate towards the best builds, why do we want that to still be an option? There are dozens of optimizers who WILL figure out what combos are best and use just those. It's already a headache to hear about coffeelocks and other "technically possible" rule abuses, I don't want to add yet another avenue for PCs to build Frankenstein PCs to eek out another advantage.

Lastly, the balance of such a system would be precarious. You have to make sure that hybrids aren't better than single species PCs or everyone will simply play hybrids. If you make them too weak and people complain the system punishes hybrids. Have one choice clearly superior to the others and all of a sudden every PC looks at that species and says "how you doin'?"

Multi-classing has been in the game for five editions and they still haven't figured out how to balance that yet. I don't want to add multi-species-ing to the headache.