Who Actually Has Time for Bloated Adventures?

[payn]

If that's the case, then it should be very easy to make the adventure-parts formatted to be run, and the "supplemental fiction"-parts read for lore. But they don't really format them that way, do they?

Actually, in my experiecne thats exactly what they do. I don't have to read the supplemental material at all to run the adventure.

Which begs the question: Why is it not like that?

I think its so folks can have a full flavored and expanded campaign instead of a series of strung along adventures that loosely connect. Think of it like watching a series (AP) instead of films (modules).

Why would they be purposefully not easy to run? Or at least "not meant to be" (run easily)? That makes no sense to me.

By easy, I assume, most folks mean they can go page by page and easily follow the adventure in little prep and running time. There isnt much slack/setting/variance to account for. It's an odd complaint as folks often say APs are too railroady, but then complain when they are not linear enough.

 

[aramis erak]

Maybe. But I've seen more acclaim recently for short adventures from Old School Essentials than anything created by Paizo.

Of the 5 gamestores I've hit recently (post lockdown), 2 carried OSE at all, and the only the big book ones; All of them had some Paizo adventures, usually big thick book ones. All also had D&D 5E adventures. Note also: The two with OSE materials? Both still have D&D 4E stuff still on the shelves....
Drive Through RPG aka RPGNow aka OneBookshelf is a small fraction of the overall market; Wizards and Paizo both do far more via dead tree in stores and via Amazon than DTRPG; Paizo's DTRPG isn't even their preferred webstore for PDF - they have their own. Similarly Mongoose, Cubicle 7, Free League, Modiphius...

 

[Retreater]

The two with OSE materials? Both still have D&D 4E stuff still on the shelves....

Nice! Pick up that 4e stuff while you still can.

And I'm sure OSE doesn't see the sales of 5e or Pathfinder, but look at some of the awards they're getting for adventure design. Consider some of the revolutionary layout in products like OSE.
I can sit down, look at an adventure from OSE and be ready to run it in 15 minutes - maybe also while inebriated. I wish that design space could coexist sometimes with the big name publishers.
Like "we've done the prep work - now entertain your friends for a few hours."
Even their standalone adventures are too much at times.

 

[aramis erak]

Nice! Pick up that 4e stuff while you still can.

Don't care to. Not my cuppa...

And I'm sure OSE doesn't see the sales of 5e or Pathfinder, but look at some of the awards they're getting for adventure design. Consider some of the revolutionary layout in products like OSE.

What I've seen of OSE layout is lots of wasted space, and illos that neither inspire me nor seem to fit the text.

What I've read of its mechanics leaves me even colder than D&D 4E.

I can sit down, look at an adventure from OSE and be ready to run it in 15 minutes - maybe also while inebriated. I wish that design space could coexist sometimes with the big name publishers.
Like "we've done the prep work - now entertain your friends for a few hours."
Even their standalone adventures are too much at times.

If inebriation is part of your gaming life, well, I left that behavior back in the 1980's...

I'm not quite a teatotaller, but with age, mixing booze and TT games lost its appeal not long after I was legal to drink.

 

[payn]

Nice! Pick up that 4e stuff while you still can.

And I'm sure OSE doesn't see the sales of 5e or Pathfinder, but look at some of the awards they're getting for adventure design. Consider some of the revolutionary layout in products like OSE.
I can sit down, look at an adventure from OSE and be ready to run it in 15 minutes - maybe also while inebriated. I wish that design space could coexist sometimes with the big name publishers.
Like "we've done the prep work - now entertain your friends for a few hours."
Even their standalone adventures are too much at times.

I definitely dont think APs fit the bill here. Though, I do think the old school module adventure design is an underserved market.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Both still have D&D 4E stuff still on the shelves....

Were they in California?? (Fingers crossed)

 

[Retreater]

What I've seen of OSE layout is lots of wasted space, and illos that neither inspire me nor seem to fit the text.

For me, I think the white space is helpful. I get easily overwhelmed with uninterrupted blocks of text.
But what I appreciate the most are bullet points to tell me the key features, sidebars to remind me of important story beats, maps and stats on the same page, etc.
I want good notes to run an adventure, not a novella.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Actually, in my experiecne thats exactly what they do. I don't have to read the supplemental material at all to run the adventure.

Okay. But do you think they are actually done well for this purpose? I'm far from one of the nay-sayers, in that I generally enjoy the WotC and Paizo-published adventures that I've read. But I wouldn't say that they are organized well for DMs.

I think its so folks can have a full flavored and expanded campaign instead of a series of strung along adventures that loosely connect. Think of it like watching a series (AP) instead of films (modules).

Sure, yeah. But again I ask: Can't it be both? Can't they be broken down into bite-sized chunks AND add up to a big story? Are we sure that they can't be better? And by better, I mean A LOT better.

By easy, I assume, most folks mean they can go page by page and easily follow the adventure in little prep and running time.

Well, I guess the general idea is less prep-time than we currently need to do. Obviously, some are better than others.

There isnt much slack/setting/variance to account for. It's an odd complaint as folks often say APs are too railroady, but then complain when they are not linear enough.

Does anyone do that though? (I mean, I guess someone probably does, there are ALL KINDS here). I think the complaint usually boils down to: Have the adventure give the players meaningful choices. Don't assume that the PCs will do the seemingly obvious thing. Give at least a little guidance for when they don't bite the hook. (IMO this is actually easiest when you give two or three possible directions at any given fork-in-the-road. If there's forks, you can't call it much of a railroad, and if you give multiple directions, you're less likely to have the players say "nope, we're going THIS way" and leave the DM stuck if the adventure only goes THAT way.

PCs might not take the most obvious route, but if they're not purposefully trying to cause their DM problems (and most are not), then a couple of alternate choices will usually do. They'll pick one of them.

Personally, I don't like sandboxes. But I'd LOVE for every adventure to make sure that there's more than one way to go whenever it presents a possible fork.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

On the subject of railroads...

Take Tyranny of Dragons. Personally, I like that adventure. I'm running it for my third time (with a third group). BUT... the complainers are correct that it starts out with two fundamental flaws:

1) The only way (in three groups!) I've ever been able to get the PCs to go into Greenest (if you're not familiar, the adventure starts with a town being attacked by a literal army of dragon cultists and mercs and a blue dragon) is by telling them "Trust me. I'm not out to kill you. They are busy raiding and won't pay that close attention to you if you're careful." (In other words: I have to break the wall). Otherwise, every one of the three groups I've run it for would say, "Nope! We're going THAT way!" And leave the adventure behind.

2) Secondly, it very early on expects the PCs to decide to join the cult (to infiltrate, you see...). Now, this makes for a fun adventure, and it works pretty well. But AGAIN, the idea to do it does not come naturally from the players, but from DM broad hinting it. I've yet to see a player present the idea without prompting. (At least they've decided to give it a shot each time!)

It really ought to have been written with some other ideas in mind. I mean, sure, there's some lip-service given (now at least, the beginning has been rewritten from the original) to not following the above ideas, but something like a third of the adventure is written under the assumption that the players make decisions that they are not likely to make. The DM has to do the heavy-lifting if they don't. AND the DM has to do some heavy lifting if they want to get their players to go along with it.

 

[Autumnal]

Gumshoe has a fantastic adventure format, comprehensive, clear, and showing you just what needs to change for variations. It’s one of Robin Laws’ best concepts.