D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Bagpuss]

This conflation of just an "animal" and "having a reallife human culture" is where racism starts to happen.

I'd like to know what real life human culture you think orcs have?

 

[Yaarel]

I'd like to know what real life human culture you think orcs have?

"Savages".

Shamans.

Chiefs.

Religions.

Tribes.

Nomads.

Camps.

Hordes.

 

[Bagpuss]

I see the point.

At the same time, these descriptions are matter-of-fact. The method of reproducing between sapient species is done by means "magic" and "wonder". Magics and wonders are common and ordinary in most D&D settings.

It is like saying, "Thanks to scientific technology, different sapient species can have children together." It would be a statement about what is normal.

That would be like IVF rather than natural reproduction (and heck we are talking about the same species so no massive hurdles to jump). So it often fails, and only makes up about 1% to 2% of births in the USA where the technology is readily available. So still rare, very rare.

 

[Bagpuss]

So.. it's a feature that every species is portrayed as a bunch of uniform scumbags I don't want to play because they're all worthless and terrible as people.

No it's a feature that every species views outsiders with some level of distrust, that each species (and or their culture) has some flaws, they aren't "scumbags" or "worthless, terrible people" for not being perfect.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I mean if you're writing a group of semi sentient monsters then using stone age technology makes sense. That's not racism, it's just logical. It took humans hundreds of thousands of years to advance past the stone age, while groups of modern monkeys and apes are already creating and utilising stone tools. So anything in between a human and an ape in intelligence will also be in the stone age.

Of course orcs are no longer written as semi sentient monsters, and are playable species matching humans for intelligence. So writing them as simple monsters doesn't make sense, and in fact come across as racist af.

 

[Yaarel]

I mean if you're writing a group of semi sentient monsters then using stone age technology makes sense. That's not racism, it's just logical. It took humans hundreds of thousands of years to advance past the stone age, while groups of modern monkeys and apes are already creating and utilising stone tools. So anything in between a human and an ape in intelligence will also be in the stone age.

Of course orcs are no longer written as semi sentient monsters, and are playable species matching humans for intelligence. So writing them as simple monsters doesn't make sense, and in fact come across as racist af.

The Stone Age is not so long ago.

For example, the Neolithic Revolution is about 10,000 years ago depending on where one is referring to.

The people of the Stone Age are us. They are normal modern humans, Homo sapiens sapiens. They have the same brain size as we do. They are as smart as we are. Their languages are as sophisticated as ours.

If they have a "culture" and a "language". They are us.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

The Stone Age is not so long ago.

For example, the Neolithic Revolution is about 10,000 years ago depending on where one is referring to.

The people of the Stone Age are us. They are normal modern humans, Homo sapiens sapiens. They have the same brain size as we do. They are as smart as we are. Their languages are as sophisticated as ours.

If they have a "culture" and a "language". They are us.

Stone age is both right now (including some human groups still), and millions of years ago (when human relatives first entered the stone age). Macaques and chimps are currently in the early stone age as well.

And yet a modern stone age human isn't the same intelligence as a tool making and using chimp, despite both being in the stone age. The intelligence gap is vast.

 

[Yaarel]

Stone age is both right now (including some human groups still), and millions of years ago (when human relatives first entered the stone age). Macaques and chimps are currently in the early stone age as well.

And yet a modern stone age human isn't the same intelligence as a tool making and using chimp, despite both being in the stone age. The intelligence gap is vast.

The point of concern here is − human culture and language.

If they have reallife cultures like we do, then they are us.

The capacity of speech is key.

If they are sewing clothes, they are us.



We know who our genetic cousins are, namely bonobo and chimpanzee. We see what they can do. They arent "Orcs".

 

[Frozen_Heart]

The point of concern here is − human culture and language.

If they have reallife cultures like we do, then they are us.

The capacity of speech is key.

If they are sewing clothes, they are us.



We know who our genetic cousins are, namely bonobo and chimpanzee. We see what they can do. They arent "Orcs".

Animals have cultures and language too. Many animals like chimps and elephants do ritualistic behaviour when one of their group dies. There is even a group of chimps recorded as having to place a stone at the base of a certain tree when they pass it. Orcas have regional languages with hundreds or even thousands of words.

Likewise clothing isn't a precursor for intelligence or sapience. A species with thick fur or feathers wouldn't need to make cloths like humans do.

I agree that just copy and pasting a human culture onto a semi sapient species of monsters is racist, as it's suggesting that the group of humans who's culture you're placing onto orcs are not proper sapients. But culture, tool use, and speech as concepts aren't human exclusive features, and using them for a species of animals isn't problematic in itself.

An animal can be smarter than a chimp but less intelligent than a human. It just so happens that none exist irl, because they got outcompeted by other species of apes (including humans) and so none are left.

 

[Yaarel]

Animals have cultures and language too.

Not to the degree that humans do. The difference between the language of humans and of other animals is quantitative and qualitative.

Humans evolved biologically via radically specializing for language and learning − whence human cultures.



Maybe dolphins and whales have sophisticated language. But it is hard to say. They dont have hands, they dont make things, they dont manipulate things, like humans do. If they are sapient, their intelligence is quite alien from human intelligence.