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D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

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Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
So not human then, just reflection, limited aspects of humanity. Archetypes are like analogies. They tend to be fixed, so not the full range of human experience like I was saying.
Yes, fantasy settings are about human folkbelief archetypes. Something like the dream of a culture.

If one has a dream about person, that person in the dream is not actually a person. The dream figure is a symbolic aspect of oneself. A construct.

The Orc is an archetype, an aspect of ones own self.

So far, this is fine.

The problem happens because, stereotypes and racisms work the same way. These prejudices are incomplete self-projections.

So, it is important to make a point to humanize these "others", especially when depicting them with the features of reallife human cultures.
 

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If an other sapient species is truly "alien" from the human species, then humans wont recognize what they are doing. They would be more like dolphins and unclear whether they are sapient or not.

They wont have features of reallife human cultures, like human languages and witchdoctors and clothing and tribes and religions.

And if they are "savages", then that is reallife extremist racism from over a century ago.

If they have a human culture, they are us.

Again though this is a fantasy setting. You can easily imagine a world populated by humanoids of varying intelligence with different brains (and that isn't a commentary on real world people at all). You are trying to imagine a world where monsters are actually part of the setting. So you can have a like orcs that are intelligent, but maybe less so than humans, and maybe more aggressive or even just natural enemies of humans. There are different ways to approach this. I don't think doing so means you are trying make some kind of real life extremists game. Now it can be done in a racist way or a way that promotes racist ideology (there is a notorious black metal musician who made an RPG and from what I have heard about it, that is what it does). That would definitely be objectionable in my view. But there is a long tradition in science fiction and fantasy of treating these kinds of things as thought experiments. And an orc in D&D is just a thought experiment. I think the problem is somewhere a long the way, some started to view orcs as stand ins for real people or even for real world ethnicities (and I get their is debate about their origins and how they were originally depicted in Tolkien's notes but by the time you get to the 70s and 80s, orcs are just monsters, not in any way a representation of a real world people).

A lot of this also hinges on alignment and how that is dealt with, which has changed a lot over the editions, as have orcs (they have been pretty different in each edition). And one challenge D&D has is carrying over its old lore and concepts into the changes in a way that can do things like accommodate different styles. So I think sometimes the PHB chooses means that aren't entirely logical but can be hand waved because once you get into the specifics of a campaign or setting you sort of choose your course from there.

With orcs and alignment, before it used to just be Law, Neutrality and Chaos and creatures like elves and orcs were more like out of Three Hearts and Three Lions, where you had these mystical beings that were aligned with the cosmic forces. One of the key differences though in Anderson is elves I believe would have also been aligned with the forces of chaos. This made these races interesting in my view because it made them somewhat incomprehensible and frightening (which I think was effective). But you see that approach in the early versions of D&D. Then when you get the more complicated alignment system, I think that is where people often disagreed over this stuff (and now we may be debating if evil orcs are racist, but even back when I first started people were arguing that it wasn't particularly realistic, especially because no one my age read stuff like Anderson so we had no sense of context).

Personally I've always found the AD&D alignment system kind of wonky but I get that people find it convenient. What I recall emerging more and more was using alignment less as an inherent or cosmic quality and more cultural tendencies so you could have things like evil empires and evil raiders (which I would argue are useful for a large number of fantasy campaigns). So the way I read an entry like C/E next to race or in a stat block for a kingdom, was these were just the tendencies (you would still find good people among them). With orcs you can just read that as this is how the trajectory of orc societies progressed in history and to human eyes they engage in evil practices (and evils would be things like engaging in slavery, killing innocent people and having a general disregard for life, etc). Again I am not saying that is the greatest world to have, personally I actually prefer orcs that are a lot more nuanced in my own games, but I get why its there in most of the editions, and I don't think it is racist, it is just a gameable conceit to have fearsome enemies who look terrifying and act terrifying for low level characters to face.
 

So, it is important to make a point to humanize these "others", especially when depicting them with the features of reallife human cultures.

The problem with this is any monster in any type of genre, is potentially the 'other'. And I have no issue with a game or movie trying to explore that and do things like give the monsters perspective or show that the monster is really just misunderstood (that itself is a pretty classic trope at this point). Again, Night Breed is one of the best monster movies ever. But you still need to be able to have monsters in media. Clive Barker making Cabal and Nightbreed should be the landmark that they are in horror, but they mean we can no longer have Freddy Krueger. And this goes back pretty far actually. Even the Creature from the Black Lagoon was misunderstood and his actions are a response to one of the divers attacking him (he seems pretty content in his Lagoon far away from people, and only curious about them not hostile at first). So I get the value of using something like horror or fantasy to explore social issues, racial tensions etc. I just don't think every single fantasy world and horror movie is doing that or needs to be seen as commentary. I don't want every slasher movie to be about how the killer is just someone who is othered, or that the killer has to actually be a representative of a group with power and is attacking the marginalized (those can work from time to time, but most of the time, I just want a terrifying monster). Same with other types of monsters movies. There is plenty of room for more introspective takes. You just also need to be able to use classic bad guy monsters too.
 

Bagpuss

Legend
So, it is important to make a point to humanize these "others", especially when depicting them with the features of reallife human cultures.

No it is important to understand these are fictional tools to represent "an aspect of ones own self", not a real-life human culture, or people. Once you realise they are a fictional tool and not a racist depiction the problem goes away.

If you humanize them and make they rounded and complex (just like real humans) them they stop providing the same role in the story, and you end up making just another race that is so similar to being human, you might as well not have it.

Then often you end up creating something to replace that story element gap you now have created, and have to create something to fill it, like infernal gnolls, or whatever, and your problem starts again.

Just realise it isn't a problem, it's a feature.
 

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
Again though this is a fantasy setting. You can easily imagine a world populated by humanoids of varying intelligence with different brains (and that isn't a commentary on real world people at all). You are trying to imagine a world where monsters are actually part of the setting. So you can have a like orcs that are intelligent, but maybe less so than humans, and maybe more aggressive or even just natural enemies of humans. There are different ways to approach this. I don't think doing so means you are trying make some kind of real life extremists game. Now it can be done in a racist way or a way that promotes racist ideology (there is a notorious black metal musician who made an RPG and from what I have heard about it, that is what it does). That would definitely be objectionable in my view. But there is a long tradition in science fiction and fantasy of treating these kinds of things as thought experiments. And an orc in D&D is just a thought experiment. I think the problem is somewhere a long the way, some started to view orcs as stand ins for real people or even for real world ethnicities (and I get their is debate about their origins and how they were originally depicted in Tolkien's notes but by the time you get to the 70s and 80s, orcs are just monsters, not in any way a representation of a real world people).

A lot of this also hinges on alignment and how that is dealt with, which has changed a lot over the editions, as have orcs (they have been pretty different in each edition). And one challenge D&D has is carrying over its old lore and concepts into the changes in a way that can do things like accommodate different styles. So I think sometimes the PHB chooses means that aren't entirely logical but can be hand waved because once you get into the specifics of a campaign or setting you sort of choose your course from there.

With orcs and alignment, before it used to just be Law, Neutrality and Chaos and creatures like elves and orcs were more like out of Three Hearts and Three Lions, where you had these mystical beings that were aligned with the cosmic forces. One of the key differences though in Anderson is elves I believe would have also been aligned with the forces of chaos. This made these races interesting in my view because it made them somewhat incomprehensible and frightening (which I think was effective). But you see that approach in the early versions of D&D. Then when you get the more complicated alignment system, I think that is where people often disagreed over this stuff (and now we may be debating if evil orcs are racist, but even back when I first started people were arguing that it wasn't particularly realistic, especially because no one my age read stuff like Anderson so we had no sense of context).

Personally I've always found the AD&D alignment system kind of wonky but I get that people find it convenient. What I recall emerging more and more was using alignment less as an inherent or cosmic quality and more cultural tendencies so you could have things like evil empires and evil raiders (which I would argue are useful for a large number of fantasy campaigns). So the way I read an entry like C/E next to race or in a stat block for a kingdom, was these were just the tendencies (you would still find good people among them). With orcs you can just read that as this is how the trajectory of orc societies progressed in history and to human eyes they engage in evil practices (and evils would be things like engaging in slavery, killing innocent people and having a general disregard for life, etc). Again I am not saying that is the greatest world to have, personally I actually prefer orcs that are a lot more nuanced in my own games, but I get why its there in most of the editions, and I don't think it is racist, it is just a gameable conceit to have fearsome enemies who look terrifying and act terrifying for low level characters to face.
Norse folkbelief has "trolls". Some of these trolls are intelligent and yet try to hunt and eat Norse humans.

But is this "racist"? No.

Because. These trolls are Norse too. They speak Norse, and share Norse culture.

Fortunately, the trolls who are good neighbors outnumber the trolls who are awful.



The monsters in British cultures are British. Russian monsters are Russian. Chinese monsters are Chinese. Japanese monsters are Japanese.

And so on.

There is no "othering" of other human cultures.

There is no racism. It is ones own culture.



But if D&D says, the monster happens to be much like this other culture who is historically a target of reallife racism, then yes, that demonization of a reallife culture is actual racism.
 

Then often you end up creating something to replace that story element gap you now have created, and have to create something to fill it, like infernal gnolls, or whatever, and your problem starts again.
It's already happening with gnolls. Though their 5e version is clearly an 'always evil bad guy', dnd has already played with them being a normal sapient species. Over time I think that they will end up a PC species due to their ebrron and 4e iterations.

If people want a 'generic bad guy' species, then it can't be a PC species. Ever. It should have features built in from the beginning which outright prevent it being a PC species. For example being unable to speak PC languages even if brought up in those cultures.
 

Example features of a species of pre-sapients which can't become a player species, and have legit reasons to fight player species.

  • Smarter than apes, less intelligent than player species (int 7).
  • They would be classed as beasts, not humanoids.
  • Unable to speak (or learn) PC languages, and instead speak using a complex series of calls.
  • They are able to build tools, weapons, and shelters from stone, wood, and earth. But have no metalworking.
  • They are unable to create fire, but are able to maintain existing fires. Groups with a fire have a huge advantage over those without.
  • Fur means they don't use or make clothing.
  • They conflict with sapients like humans, as those are their natural prey. They will seek out settlements of sapients and raid them, destroying them for food in a single night to feed the group.
  • Back when humans lived in small tribes, only smalls groups of these creatures existed. As humans and other sapients have developed into large societies, the numbers of this species have shot up too.
  • Different subtypes which fill different roles. Medium or small sized ones to act as hordes, Large sized ones to act as big strong scary things. Reasoning being that more variation is good for players to fight, as fighting the same few statblocks over and over is boring.
  • Any spellcasting is innate, and not learnt.
  • As depicting different humans as monkeys or apes has been a common tactic irl against different races, lets make them a different group of mammals. Rodents are close to monkeys and apex, and DnD has no existing rodent species. So lets make them bipedal rodents of unusual size.
 

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
Lets use a contemporary analogy.

There is a bully in a high school who is trying to harass and harm an other student.

So the bully generates an AI image that depicts a caricature of the victim. This image is truly offensive. Exaggerating physical appearances, placing them in a situation that bully doesnt want to let the victim forget. Posting the image all over school. You get the idea.

Now, the victim goes to the principle and complains, and tries to get these images taken down, and hopefully even have the principle or the police punish the bully for the crime of defamation.

But the principle says, No. This AI image is just a fantasy. It isnt real. It isnt you. The bully can do whatever the bully wants.



If D&D depicts a distorted image of an other reallife culture, D&D would be this bully.
 

Bagpuss

Legend
Example features of a species of pre-sapients which can't become a player species, and have legit reasons to fight player species.

snip...

You are just recreating the "problem", at some point anything you create someone will say is a reflection of prejudices to X marginalized group and the process starts again.
 

RhaezDaevan

Explorer
Grabbing this as I move through the thread, do you have a link to it?
I didn't make it yet, as I wanted to see if anyone wanted it before I put in the effort.

Considering where you stand in this thread, you probably won't enjoy my take on elves and orcs, but you would then be free to describe your version to balance it out.
 

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